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LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS 


HEARINGS 

" 7 /;• r 

BEFORE THE 


COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRS 

vot t, 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

SIXTY-FIFTH CONGRESS 

THIRD SESSION 

ON 

ACQUIRING LAND FOR ESTABLISHMENT OF MOBILIZATION 
AND TRAINING FIELDS FOR ARTILLERY AND SMALL ARMS 



WASHINGTON 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 





COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRS. 


GEORGE E. CHAMBERLAIN, of Oregon, Chairman. 


GILBERT M. HITCHCOCK, of Nebraska. 

DUNCAN U. FLETCHER, of Florida. 

HENRY L. MYERS, of Montana. 

CHARLES S. THOMAS, of Colorado. 

MORRIS SHEPPARD, of Texas. 

J. C. W. BECKHAM, of Kentucky. 

WILLIAM F. KIRBY, of Arkansas. 

JAMES A. REED, of Missouri. 

KENNETH D. McKELLAR, of Tennessee. 

HOKE SMITH, of Georgia. 

Caralyn B. Shelton, Clerk. 

S. W. McIntosh, Assistant Clerk. 

0 


FRANCIS E. WARREN, of Wyoming. 

JOHN W. WEEKS, of Massachusetts. 

JAMES W. WADSWORTH, Jr., of New York. 
HOWARD SUTHERLAND, of West Virginia. 
HARRY S. NEW, of Indiana. 

JOSEPH S. FRELINGHUYSEN,of New Jersey. 
HIRAM W. JOHNSON, of California. 
PHILANDER C. KNOX, of Pennsylvania. 


0. of J, 

m to 1919 







CONTENTS. 


Statement of: 

Hon. Newton D. Baker, Secretary of War_ 

Hon. Benedict Crowell, Assistant Secretary of War 

Mr. Joseph H. Defrees___ 

Mr. R. L. Stancill_ 

Col. H E. Eames_ 

Mr. E. J. Wynn_ 

Mr. (1. H. Howell_ 

Col. Townsend Whelen_ 

Col. K. E. Wyllie_ 

Mr. Frank Hugh Garrard_ 

Mr. C. C. Minter__ 

Mr. Joe S. Bergen_ 

Mr. W; O. Berry_ 

Mr. B. S. Miller_ 

Mr. J. G. Dunham_ 

Mr. W. C Schley_ 

Col. Morton C. Mumma_ 

Lieut. Col. Smith W. Brookhart_ 


Page. 

6 

12 
43 
02 

70, 206 
85 

- 8 1 
99, 192 
101 . 201 
105 
109, 181 
_ 127 

_ 135 

138 
152 
156 
160 
219 


3 




































•» 








LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS 


TUESDAY, JANUARY 7, 1919. 


United States Senate, 
Committee on Military Affairs, 

W ashing ton, D. C. 

The committee met at 10 o’clock a. m., pursuant to call of the chair¬ 
man, in the committee room, Capitol, Senator George E. Chamber- 
lain presiding. 

Present: Senators Chamberlain (chairman), Hitchcock, Fletcher, 
Thomas, Beckham, Kirby, McKellar, Weeks, Sutherland, New, Knox, 
and Frelinghuysen; also Hon. Newton D. Baker, Secretary of War, 
and Hon. Benedict Crowell, Assistant Secretary of War. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. I will state 
generally to the committee that the Secretary of War wrote me a 
letter under date of December 29,1918, which I will read to the com¬ 
mittee so that it may be advised of the purpose of this meeting. The 
letter is as follows: 

War Department, 
Washington, December 29, 1918. 


My Dear Senator Chamberlain : At the time of the intervention of the 
armistice the War Department was in process of acquiring land and construct¬ 
ing buildings at Fayetteville, N. C.; Columbus, Ga.; and West Point, Ky., as 
permanent sites for the establishment of mobilization and training fields for 
artillery and small arms. Other camps were in process of construction for 
training in other arms, but at once upon the signing of the armistice an attempt 
\yas made to diminish the construction undertakings and to limit the training 
fields to the three in question. 

The purchases were proposed to be made out of appropriations already made, 
but the intervention of the armistice raises, of course, the question as to the 
policy which ought to be pursued with regard to these projects, and, of course, 
any policy pursued ought to have the concurrence and approval of the Congress. 
Mr. Crowell and I would, therefore, like to have an opportunity to lay before 
the Senate Committee on Military Affairs the details of these three projects in 
order that we may secure the counsel and advice of the committee for our 
further guidance. 

It seems to us very important to have the advice of the committee at the 
earliest possible moment, and I would be grateful if you would let me know 
the first convenience of the committee at which he and I can appear with appro¬ 
priate maps and data so that the whole case may be laid before you. 

Cordially, yours, 


Newton D. Baker, 

Secretary of War. 


Hon. George E. Chamberlain, 

Chairman Senate Committee on Military Affairs. 


I submitted this situation to the committee a few days ago, and 
they authorized me to arrange a hearing for to-day, if it was satis¬ 
factory to the Secretary, which I did, and the Secretary and Mr. 
Crowell are present. 

Mr. Secretary, the committee will be glad to hear you. 


5 



6 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


STATEMENT OF HON. NEWTON D. BAKER, SECRETARY OF WAR. 

Secretary Baker. Mr. Chairman, I shall make only a very brief 
statement, I hope in a few sentences, and then I shall ask Mr. Crowell 
to deal with the details for the information of the committee. 

Of course, it is unnecessary for me to say that modern warfare, as 
we have discovered its character in France, has shown the need of a 
very different kind of training for any Army organization that we 
will have, no matter what that Army may be, and without undertak¬ 
ing to discuss what sort of Army the United States ultimately ought 
to have, it is safe to assume that it will have a Regular Arm^ of 
some size, and, that that Regular Army, in order to be an efficient 
Army, will have to be trained in the kinds of warfare which have 
been demonstrated as the modern modes. They involve the use of 
heavy artillery and of rifles and machine guns under conditions and 
in modes which we never have had any sort of adequate opportunity 
for acquiring familiarity with. 

When the war was still on it became necessary for us to develop 
training camps for maneuvering and training in artillery and small 
arms on a very large scale. Among others, there were three projects— 
there were others, but only three that need to be presented here, be¬ 
cause the others are so little advanced that they can be abandoned 
without serious loss to the Government and without involving it in 
any sort of misunderstanding on the part of the people in the neigh¬ 
borhoods at which they were proposed to be located. But there were 
three that had been quite far advanced in the matter of plan and en¬ 
gagement with the persons who owned the land. 

Those three were, first, one at West Point, Ky., or near West Point, 
Ky., known as Stithton, which was intended to be a maneuver and 
practice ground for artillery of sufficient size to enable it to use bar¬ 
rage and to train men in large units in the use of artillery. 

The second was at Fayetteville, N. C., of like character with the 
one at Stithton, at least of like character of use, and the third wa^ 
a small arms training ground near Columbus, Ga. 

All three of these projects involve the acquisition of a very large 
acreage, tens of thousands of acres. 

When the armistice came we were in this situation with regard to 
all three of these grounds, although in different states of advance-, 
ment; we had entered upon and were occupying the grounds. Most, 
if not all of the farmers and residents—there were scattered farmers 
and residents here and there over these tracts, though they were rela¬ 
tively few T —but most of them had moved out and abandoned their 
cultivation and abandoned their homes. We had begun the erection 
of buildings and had progressed pretty far with the erection of bar¬ 
rack buildings, storehouses, and other ancillary buildings, and places 
of that sort, and had spent a good deal of money on each One of the 
three. The amount of rent which was agreed to be paid had been 
stipulated, and there was also an option at which the Government 
could acquire the land. It is all land of relatively low-acreage value. 

Tn addition to the rent the Government, of course, was obliged to 
pay whatever damages accrued to the land by reason of its temporary 
occupancy. When the armistice came, of course it became apparent 
that the immediate need of these grounds and buildings was not so 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


7 


great, and the question which then arose was twofold: First, should 
we go on in the interest of having these training places for whatever 
Regular Army we have and complete these training grounds and 
acquire title permanently, or should we abandon them and leave 
the whole question an open one for Congress to determine later. 

In trying to come to some kind of conclusion about that, a study 
was made of the relative amounts which would be needed to stop pay¬ 
ing damages and the rent and the losses which would be involved in 
such permanent structures as we have, building roads, and putting 
in sewer systems, and the relative loss of treating the problem in that 
way and of going forward with the acquisition of the title, cutting 
down, however, the proposed amount of building so as not to have 
these grounds provided with buildings which would be adequate for 
training the Army on a war basis, but for the present at least con¬ 
structing only such buildings as would be necessary to conduct the 
training during any peace-time establishment in the modern uses of 
this Army. 

Mr. Crowell has all the facts and figures with regard to these 
three grounds. The Stithton ground and the Fayetteville ground 
are needed for artillery training. The Columbus (Ga.) camp, Camp 
Benning, was intended for small arms, and it was originally in¬ 
tended that there should be a tank field near Raleigh, N. C. That 
had gotten so little advanced when the armistice came that it was 
at once abandoned and the use of a portion of the ground at Co¬ 
lumbus, Ga., was proposed for the tank corps. That would make, 
at Columbus, Ga., the training in machine guns and rifles and also 
in tanks; it would make at Fayetteville the mass training in ar¬ 
tillery, and also at West Point. 

There is only one word that I want to say about it before you 
are introduced to the details. Some question was raised as to 
whether we had the right to buy these properties in view of the 
fact that the moneys placed at the disposal of the War Department 
were placed at our disposal for the emergencies of the war. The 
war having substantially come to an end, I feel that we ought not. 
without the knowledge and approval of the committees as repre¬ 
senting the nearest thing we could get and representing the ap¬ 
proval of Congress, to go forward with permanent betterments 
of the war establishment out of funds which were specially appro¬ 
priated for emergencv uses, and it was for that reason that we 
wanted to lay all the facts before the committee and get their judg¬ 
ment as business men and the policy-making body on the wisdom 
of either of the two courses suggested—either closing these projects 
and writing off the loss or going forward with them in their modi¬ 
fied form and having* it a part of the permanent Military Estab¬ 
lishment. ' . 

Now, with regard to the three projects. I am quite sure 1 speak 
advisedly when I say that the military men all feel that the three 
projects are necessary. Gen. Snow, who is Chief of Artillery, feels 
that it is absolutely essential, whatever sized Regular Army we 
have, to be able to*have artillery practice on the large scale that 
is involved in the laying down of barrages and the maneuver of 
field artillery; that is not possible at Fort Sill. They do individual 
target firing* there and that sort of thing, but for the maneuvering 


8 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


of brigades of artillery at Fort Sill, the grounds are not large enough 
for it, or at least the situation is not suitable. It is not large enough 
for it on a large enough scale. 

Gen. Snow is quite sure that both of these grounds are large 
enough for any peace establishment that we have, and I think the 
entire opinion of the staff is that some such ground as that proposed 
at Columbus, Ga., is necessary for training in small arms. Of course, 
ordinary target range at which men learn to shoot at a target with 
target rifles or machine gunds, requires no such wide-reaching areas 
as are proposed there, but the drill and practice in attacking ma¬ 
chine-gun nests and in circumventing machine-gun emplacements 
and making flank and rear attacks on machine-gun fortifications, 
and the use of rifles in mass, are all parts of the things we have 
learned about modern war that the Army feel they ought to know 
about as part of their regular peace-time training. 

Senator Weeks. Before the Secretary leaves- 

Secretary Baker. I do not intend to leave, Senator. 

Senator Weeks. I want 1 6 ask you how it is going to be possible to 
determine what would be required in the way of fields and camps 
until we learn what the peace establishment of the Army should be? 

Secretary Baker. I do not intend to deal with that exactly in that 
form, but I do say that the staff feels that, no matter what the 
peace-time establishment ought to be, we are sure to have a Regular 
Army, and we have been proceeding on the theory in the War De¬ 
partment that Congress would feel justified in authorizing a peace¬ 
time establishment for the present of an Army of 500,000 men. 
These grounds are deemed necessary by the War Department—by 
the staff—no matter what the size of the Regular Army, on the as¬ 
sumption that we have any Regular Army, that ought to be trained 
in the use of modern weapons under modern methods. 

Senator Weeks. What is it contemplated to do with the grounds at 
Tobyhanna, Pa.? Is that project to be abandoned? 

Secretary Baker. It will be retained. 

Senator New. Those grounds were acquired long before the war, 
were they not ? 

Secretary Baker. Yes, sir; long before. 

Senator New. What is to be done with the grounds at Sparta, 
Wis.? 

Secretary Baker. I do not know about that; I can not answer as 
to that. 

Senator Thomas. What is the extent of the money value or money 
expenditures for the improvement already made at Columbus? 

Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell has those figures and will give 
them to you in acreage and dollars and all. I have not the details. 

Senator Thomas. All right; I will reserve my questions until he 
comes before the committee. 

Secretary Baker. There is one other matter that I should mention, 
merely out of courtesy, but it ought to be referred to. There was put 
into one of the House appropriation bills during the war a specific 
appropriation for the acquisition of one of these grounds—I think it 
was the one at Columbus, Ga. 

Senator Hitchcock. Fayetteville. 

Senator Thomas. Is that for artillery training? 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


9 


Secretary Baker. That is one of the artillery fields; yes, sir. 

When the bill came up to the Senate that item was omitted, and 
Gen. Snow, who w T as in conference with some of the members of the 
committee, and some of the members, as I understand it of the 
conference, learned the reason the specific item was omitted was that 
it was felt that the general appropriation for barracks and quarters 
and training grounds contained enough money to acquire these sites 
and no specific appropriation was necessary. The conference omitted 
the item. After that particular bill passed the War Department 
went on just as it had been going on with plans to acquire this 
property, and some suggestion was made that the War Department 
was going ahead on its own hook, buying land when Congress had 
withheld its approval for this specific purchase. The War Depart¬ 
ment did go ahead with the plan and acquire this land, but not at 
all on any understanding that Congress had disapproved the specific 
purchase, but merely that Congress felt that the money already 
appropriated was sufficient to cover the purpose. 

Senator McKellar. I am sure that Senator Martin had that view. 

Secretary Baker. Yes; I am sure that Senator Martin had that 
view. That is the reason I am explaining it now—the fact that the 
Senate knew the War Department had this money at its disposal, 
and Gen. Snow had been in conference with some Representatives 
and Senators and had gotten the belief from them that the only 
reason for leaving the item out was that we were supposed already 
to have the money, and that made us believe that Congress would 
not disapprove the item, and it did not need a further appropriation. 

The Chairman. I rather inferred from what the chairman of the 
Appropriations Committee said that they had turned it down because 
they did not think it advisable. I may have misunderstood him. 

Secretary Baker. That may be true. 

Senator Thomas. As a matter of fact, there was very little discus¬ 
sion of the project in the Senate. The bill was an emergency bill 
and the representations made were that we should pass it as expe¬ 
ditiously as possible, but that was about all. When that item was 
reached Senator Overman took the floor and submitted a few re¬ 
marks concerning it. I think his endeavor to answer the proposi¬ 
tion that it had not been estimated for had reference to part of the 
deficiency items. I do not think there was that discussion which 
w T ould have taken place regarding that and two or three other items 
of considerable amount if it had not been for the fact that time was 
regarded as essential to the enactment of the measure. But the 
general impression was that the Senate was averse to the acquisition 
of that’or any other ground which had not been fully acquired. 

Senator Hitchcock. You were speaking of the discussion in the 
Senate. Did not Senator Martin say that it had been extensively dis¬ 
cussed in the Committee on Appropriations? 

Senator Thomas. Yes. 

Senator Hitchcock. And that they were strongly opposed to it? 

Secretary Baker. I never knew that. I did know that the item 
had gone out; it had passed the House, as I understood it, but had 
gone out in the Senate, but I did know that in the discussion that 
took place while the conferees were discussing the bill, the statement 
was made to me that “ Congress has already appropriated plenty of 


10 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


money for you to go ahead and do that so that we did not need a 
specific appropriation for this item.” 

The Chairman. Were all the expenditures incurred down there 
after the Senate committee cut it out? 

Secretary Baker. I can not answer that. 

Senator McKellar. What was the purpose of two artillery fields, 
one at Fayetteville, which is a camp, and the other a proving ground? 

Secretary Baker. No; neither is a proving ground; both are train¬ 
ing grounds. Aberdeen is the proving ground. 

Senator McKellar. Is it necessary to have in the Regular Estab¬ 
lishment two training grounds? 

Secretary Baker. Gen. Snow thinks so. May I be permitted to 
read this memorandum which was prepared by Gen. Snow as to 
the purchase of land at Fayetteville, N. C. ? 

This is signed by Gen. Snow, Chief of Artillery. 

Senator Thomas. What is the acreage of that North Carolina 
project? 

Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell has that information. It is 130,000 
acres, I think. 

Senator McKellar. Is the Kentucky ground for the same purpose ? 

Secretary Baker. It is for the same purpose. 

Senator McKellar. Are you recommending three of these addi¬ 
tional camps? 

Secretan^ Baker. The Military Committee recommends all three. 
I am frank to say—and Mr. Crowell and I have talked it over—that 
we are inclined to believe that if we were going into it as a new 
project, with all the advantages at the start of recommending the 
acquisition of ground for this purpose, we would feel that two would 
be enough. 

Senator Thomas. Where is the third? 

Secretary Baker. At Columbus, Ga. 

Senator Thomas. Is that for artillery also,? 

Senator Baker. It is for small arms and tanks. 

Senator Thomas. The three, then, are approximately not very far 
apart? 

Secretary Baker. They are not very far apart. 

Senator Thomas. They are approximately in one section of the 
country ? 

Secretary Baker. They are approximately in one section of the 
country. We would feel if we were going into it originally, that 
two would be enough. I say if we were going into it originally and 
had not anything to consider except the needs of the Army, we would 
probably recommend only two—one for artillery and one for small 
arms. The question, however, is not quite as simple as that, because 
while the war was going on all three and more were plainly neces¬ 
sary. Now that the war is over we have come down to these three 
as being the three in which we have made already the largest invest¬ 
ment, and in which our relations with the persons who have been 
dispossessed create the largest number of equities to be considered 
in determining whether we were to go on with the three or limit 
it to two. 

Now, if the committee will hear Mr. Crowell on the facts, that is as 
much of a general statement as I care to make. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


11 


Senator Johnson. Before you leave the committee, Mr. Secre¬ 
tary— 

Secretary Baker. I am not going to leave the committee, Senator. 

Senator Johnson. I desire to suggest two other matters. One is 
in connection with the bill that is to be brought up immediately, and 
the other was the demobilization. At our last meeting we reported 
unanimously the bill presented by Senator Hitchcock concerning the 
validation of contracts and the organization of various boards for 
determining the amount which might be awarded the deserving 
contractors. Since that time Mr. Max Thelan, in whom I have 
unbounded confidence, and whose ability we very well know in our 
territory, and who has been connected with the contract department 
of the War Department—has called upon me and has rather con¬ 
vinced me that the mode of determining the amounts that may be 
due to contractors under the bill as presented by Senator Hitchcock, 
and which we reported, ought to be modified so that the organization 
which now exists in the War Department be permitted to determine 
that particular fact. 

Now, I thought while the Secretary was here—unless it is matter 
that all of you are wholly familiar with—I was not—we might hear 
from him concerning the matter. I understand it is the intention of 
Senator Hitchcock to bring up the bill at the earliest moment, is 
it not? 

Senator Hitchcock. Yes; I think it ought to be passed very soon. 

Senator Fletcher. I think w r e ought to inquire into it fully be¬ 
cause I do not think there was any hearing before the bill was 
reported. 

Senator New. In that connection, I desire to say that there is 
present in Washington to-day a committee of manufacturers repre¬ 
senting a considerable number of those who met over in New York 
yesterday, I believe, to consider this bill. They are very anxious to 
have a brief hearing by this committee to enable them to present 
some facts which they think are essential to the proper considera¬ 
tion of this subject. One of their representatives, whom I very well 
know, is waiting in the Marble Room now to see if that hearing can 
be arranged. They say they will be very brief; that they just want 
a very short time. 

Senator McKellar. I think they ought to be heard. 

The Chairman. If there is no objection, we will hear them. 

Senator Johnson of California. The reason I brought the matter 
up was upon the understanding that it was Senator Hitchcock’s in¬ 
tention to bring his bill up immediately. 

Senator Hitchcock. I will postpone it under the circumstances. 

Senator New. I think that the bill ought to. be'acted upon without 
the delay of an unnecessary hour. It is a very important matter—im¬ 
portant more to the manufacturers than it is to the Government, be¬ 
cause it is the manufacturers who are on the short end of the string. 
I think it would be politic to hear what these gentlemen have to say, 
inasmuch as there was no hearing before the bill was considered. 

The Chairman. If there is no objection, they.will be given a hear¬ 
ing. 

Senator Kirby. I suggest that as we have this" particular matter up 
and these people have come to make statements about it, we ought 


12 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


to finish this and then we can take the other matter up. I am for 
taking the other proposition up. 

Senator Johnson of California. I do not care whether you take it 
up or not. I simply wanted to call it to the attention of the com¬ 
mittee, because I did not want to be in the attitude when it comes 
up of being in opposition to the proposition without full information 
and without due notice to the committee. 

The Chairman. If there is no objection, we will hear these gentle¬ 
men a little later. We will fix a time for that purpose, but in the 
meantime Senator Johnson has very properly asked a question, and 
I think he is entitled to have an answer thereto. 

Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell and I are, of course, profoundly 
interested in the matter that is covered by the Hitchcock bill. We re¬ 
gard that as the most urgent matter before Congress and the depart¬ 
ment, and we would be very glad to yield the time and listen with 
interest to what these gentlemen have to say. 

The Chairman. Can we not close up this one proposition that we 
have in mind now, and we will call Secretary Baker back on the bill 
in question? We are now discussing, first, the acquirement of these 
training grounds. Let us finish that and then take up the other mat¬ 
ter. Now, Mr. Crowell, you may proceed with reference to the state¬ 
ment of facts about those three several grounds that have been men¬ 
tioned here. 

STATEMENT OF HON. BENEDICT CROWELL, ASSISTANT SECRETARY 

OF WAR. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Mr. Chairman,’ the facts as regards 
Camp Knox at West Point, Ky., are briefly these: The original proj¬ 
ect called for cantonments for six brigades of field artillery, officers 
training school for 10,000 men, base hospital for 2,500 beds, auxiliary 
remount depot for 5,000 animals, veterinary hospital for 1,000 
horses, cantonments for one aero squadron, and one balloon school. 

This was cut down when the armistice was signed, and the present 
project provides for cantonments for four brigades of field artillery, 
one aero squadron, and one balloon school, with proportionate reduc¬ 
tion in auxiliary accommodations and omitting entirely officers’ train¬ 
ing school. The acreage involved is 40,000. There "can be no cut¬ 
ting down of the acreage, because the range of the guns is, of course, 
just the same. The estimated cost of the land for this project is 
$2,500,000. That is $62.50 per acre. 

Senator Hitchcock. Which one is that? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. This is in Kentucky. The total 
amount involved for construction is $21,141,708.67. 

Senator Thomas. Of that amount will you state what has been ex¬ 
pended, or can you do that? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. That has been cut down 
to approximately $15,000,000 by this change, and of that amount 
$13,000,000 had.been expended at the time we made the change; in 
other words, this had gone forward so far that we cut it off just as 
short as we could. 

Senator McKellar. Had you bought the land? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


13 


Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; this is the construction only 
that I am speaking of. 

Senator McKellar. You had put up $13,000,000 for construction, 
then ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; in other words, it was 
almost finished. 

Senator Beckham. You are only considering construction work 
here and not the land. 

Senator McKellar. On what kind of arrangement did you con¬ 
struct this work on the land? Did you do it by lease, or what? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; we went on the land as quickly 
as possible and told the owners that we were going to take it and they 
would have to get away. 

Senator Thomas. In that connection, lest I forget it, I would like 
to ask whether these improvements are still continuing, or have 
they been suspended? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The work is going on. As I have 
said, about $13,000,000 worth has been completed and we merely 
squared up and finished the buildings which were practically under 
roof. 

Senator Thomas. Is that true of the other two camps? Is the 
work still going on ? 

Secretary Crowell. Yes. I will explain the other two in detail in 
a moment. 

Senator Hitchcock. Before you get to that, may I ask when was 
this camp in Kentucky fixed upon ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. In the first place ? 

Senator Hitchcock. Yes. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Last spring. 

Senator Hitchcock. In the spring of 1918 ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. In the spring of 1918. 

Senator Kirby. Why was the land bought at $62 an acre there? 
Is there any special advantage in having that sort of land on a loca¬ 
tion in a country with railroad transportation, to have land there? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, of course, we had- 

Senator McKellar. Is there any mountainous land there? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; it is quite mountainous 
there, and that was the reason this particular land was selected. 
The mountains give a back stop for the artillery. 

Senator Kirby. You did not give $62.50 for mountain land? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; but we had to include 
fertile land in between. That is high. 

Senator Hitchcock. What did you pay, Mr. Secretary ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We put a body of real estate men 
on the land. It is very much cut up in small holdings, and the ap¬ 
praisal is made up of each holding and the owner is offered a fair 
amount depending upon the appraisal. Then he usually accepts it, 
and if he does not, we condemn it. The land is all obtained at a fair 
and reasonable cost. 

Senator Fletcher. What sort of contract did you have—was it a 
lease or an option or a guarantee to buy ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We told them we were going to 
buy it and asked them to get off. We, of course, could not wait dur- 


14 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FI f!! 1>S. 


ing the war for the land to be appropriated, and si am going to 
show you now, a very small amount has already been appropriated. 

Senator Beckham. As to the matter of renting that land at West 
Point, the Government, through its representatives, has rented quite 
a good deal of it, and then set aside the contracts without notice. 
Has anything been done with regard to that as yet? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We rented no land at West Point. 
We notified them that we were going to purchase the land and we 
dispossessed them. 

Senator Beckham. But last spring there was quite a good deal 
of that land that was rented at a certain rent, and then by some order 
from the War Department it w T as annulled, set aside, and those 
people down there have not been able to get the rent you promised 
them. 

Secretary Baker. That is not in connection with this; I think that 
is in connection with the camp at Louisville. 

Senator Beckham. No; at West Point. 

Secretary Baker. At West Point? 

Senator Beckham. The case was brought before you recently. 

Secretary Baker. Yes; I remember your coming to see me about it. 

Senator Hitchcock. Mr. Secretary, does your record show to what 
extent this land has been paid for? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I will give you that. 

Senator Beckham. I would like to ask, before you take that up, 
whether anything has been done with regard to that matter. It 
has been brought to my attention quite a number of times. You 
will recall that I called you attention to it? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; but I can not give it to you 
offhand. 

Senator McKellar. Can you give us the number of acres in it 
that had formerly been rented by the Government? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not think any of this rented 
land that Senator Beckham speaks of is included in this -contract. 

Senator McKellar. What is the rented land? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not know what it is. The con¬ 
dition of this at the time of the armistice was this: The camp was 
to be 40,000 acres. One hundred and fifty-four thousand dollars 
has actually been paid to the owners in scattered tracts and as settle¬ 
ments could be made, formal acceptances have been made, aggre¬ 
gating $581,597.33. The construction quartermaster has taken pos¬ 
session of numerous properties for which settlement has not been 
made, or price agreed on, involving a total of between $400,000 and 
$500,000. It is estimated that about one-third of the entire area is 
cultivatable land, the average holdings being those of small farmers 
with tracts of 50 to 75 acres each. It is estimated that 60 to 75 per 
cent of the holdings have already been vacated by the owners. Every 
family.within the area involved had been consulted and informed 
that they would not be allowed to raise crops on the land this coming 
year. It is believed that practically every family that had not 
already vacated had already committed themselves to other plans 
based on the representation that the Government would take over 
their lands. 

That gives you the exact condition. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


15 


Senator Thomas. Right there, in my State, the Government has 
reserved about one-third—between one-third and one-fourth of the 
entire area for the alleged benefit of remote posterity. I would like 
to know why the Government instead of paying this enormous sum 
for agricultural land, needed to raise food upon, has not devoted 
some part of this land reserved for the benefit of posterity for just 
such purposes as this in times of war? They could get not only 
40,000 acres, but 100,000 acres of land in my State without paying 
one nickel for it. Those lands are both mountainous, and at the 
same time composed of area that is not particularly good for agri¬ 
culture. Now, it would seem to me, as a matter of economy, that in¬ 
stead of locating these camps in thickly settled agricultural com¬ 
munities, that good policy would have suggested their location 
somewhere on the public domain and upon land owned by the 
United States. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. These camps are all located by 
carefully selected boards and as a result of long study. 

Senator Thomas. I know they are, but these carefully selected 
boards—I won’t say purposely, but certainly they avoided making 
any investigation in the premises out in my section of the country 
where the railroad facilities and other accommodations are good 
and where the cost to the Government would only consist of the 
structures to be erected on it. That does not seem to be good 
business. 

Senator Fletcher. 1 presume they had some idea with reference to 
convenience to the Atlantic seaboard. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. There were a great many con¬ 
siderations, of course; the first one was that during the war the 
flow of everything was to be eastward. We wanted no cases of 
bringing materials or men to the East and sending them West again. 

Senator Thomas. And yet a good many soldiers were sent as far 
West as California. With respect to the people of my State, for 
instance, nearly all the men who had at first enlisted were sent 
West. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Nearly all the flow was to the 
eastward, and then, of course, the question of concentration of men 
in these camps was largely considered . Without going into detail, 
it was very carefully worked out. 

Senator McKellar. Has that camp been used up to date? 

• Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. How many men have you there now ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I could not give the number, but 
a good many. 

Senator McKellar. Is it used as a camp now ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kirby. How many cantonments and camps are adjacent 
to this land; how many of the regular cantonments and camps are 
within striking distance of these grounds? Do you remember that? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. It depends on what you call “ strik¬ 
ing distance.” 

Senator McKellar. I mean a reasonable distance, as estimated 
bv the Military Department. Is the camp at Camp Polk close 


16 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


enough to train these men there, and are the camps down in Georgia, 
Kentucky, and North Carolina close enough to train our men in 
artillery there? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; of course, this is a special 
training camp and has very little to do with the location of can¬ 
tonments or camps in which Infantry divisions are concentrated. 

Senator Kirby. I thought that was probably the excuse for locat¬ 
ing it there, because it was central and near the cantonments and 
camps ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is believed by this board that 
these two camps—Camp Knox, in Kentucky, and Camp Bragg, at 
Fayetteville, N. C.—were advantageously located in every way, all 
these things being considered. 

Shall I take up Camp Bragg next, at Fayetteville? 

Senator Weeks. Mr. Secretary, will you put in the record the 
names of the board that recommended the location of these camps? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. The location of Camps 
Bragg and Knox was determined upon recommendation of Maj. Gen. 
William J. Snow, Chief of Field Artillery; Col. Mclntire, Field Ar¬ 
tillery; Lieut. Col. C. S. Blakely, Field Artillery; and Maj. E. P. 
King, Field Artillery. 

With respect to Camp Bragg, at Fayetteville, N. C., the original 
project embraced accommodations for approximately 46,000 men, 
and related to the establishment of a Field Artillery cantonment and 
training center for six Field Artillery brigades. The accommoda¬ 
tions were to be as follows: One camp headquarters and firing center'; 
6 Artillery brigade headquarters; 6 Artillery brigades; 6 trench mor¬ 
tar batteries; 6 ammunition trains; 2 labor battalions; 1 corps Ar¬ 
tillery park; Quartermaster and utilities personnel, of 2,120; 1,000 
animal veterinary hospital; 2 balloon companies; 1 aero squadron; 1 
remount depot for 7,500 animals. From 46,000 men this was cut 
down to 16,000 men, including 2 brigades of Field Artillery, 1 aero 
squadron, and 1 balloon company, after the armistice. The acreage 
of the camp is approximately 135,000 acres. The estimated cost of 
the land is approximately $1,500,000, or about $11 per acre. The 
amount of money involved is $17,000,000, roughly, in the old project. 
It will be cut down to approximately $10,000,000 in the new project. 

The Chairman. How much of that has been expended? 

Senator Thomas. How much has been expended, about? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. About $8,000,000—over $8,000,000.. 

Senator Knox. Have you any figures showing the relation between 
what it will cost to go on and acquire the title to this land and what 
it will cost to adjust the damages already sustained by the land- 
owners ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, Senator. 

Secretary Baker. I think you have that. Did you not show me a 
sheet showing the estimated damages? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. That was for the other camps. 

We have felt committed to the purchase of these lands and have 
not made that estimate. 

Senator Knox. I think that would be instructive. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We can readily make it. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 17 

Comparison of costs: 

To complete construction_!_$2, 000,000 

To complete purchase of land_,_ 1, 400, 000 


Total__,_ 3, 400, 000 

Estimated cost of damages_ 500, 000 


Senator Fletcher. How much of the $8,000,000 has gone toward 
the purchase of the land? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The condition of the land purchased 
is this: Of approximately 135,000 acres- 

Senator Kirby. Is that not more than in the other camps ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Oh, yes; the others are 40,000 and 
130,000, respectively. At Camp Bragg $33,607 have actually been 
paid to owners, and formal acceptances yet unsettled have been made 
amounting to $48,360.80. Petition for condemnation had been filed 
covering 8,000 acres. About 10 per cent of the entire reservation is 
cultivated land. All owners and tenants had been notified that their 
lands would be taken over by the Government, and in many instances 
they have arranged to go elsewhere, and in many instances have 
actually moved. All were notified they could not raise a crop this 
coming year on these lands. In some instances the tenants had pur¬ 
chased elsewhere, making a small payment and giving notes for the 
balance, relying on the receipt of their money from the Government 
for their present holdings to pay for the new lands acquired. 

Senator Thomas. What proportion of that 140,000 acres was agri¬ 
cultural land? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. About 10 per cent. I will say that 
this land is a belt of sand, that extends across North Carolina, and is 
very close to Pinehurst, and is similar to Pinehurst. It is land in 
which the rains immediately sink, and they figure that they can 
work there under all conditions of rainfall. 

Senator Weeks. What is the advantage of the Kentucky location 
over the North Carolina location? They are for the same general 
purpose, are they not? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; they are for the same purpose. 
It is the configuration of the land. In Kentucky the land is hilly 
and mountainous, and it gives them a training that they will not get 
at Fayetteville, where there is a gentle rolling surface. 

Senator McKellar. How many can be trained in Kentucky, and 
how many at Fayetteville? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We are not reducing the acreage in 
any of these, but we have reduced to the lowest possible amount the 
cantonments, the structures, so that we can train the original num¬ 
ber that we have provided for; and, in the case of this camp, it was 
46,000 men. 

Senator McKellar. And the two other camps about the same 
number ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; about the same. Both were 
intended for six brigade camps. 

Senator Hitchco.ck. It is substantially the same acreage? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; this involves 130,000 acres, 
and there are 40,000 acres in the other camp. 

Senator Hitchcock. What is the price of this land in North 
Carolina ? 

99137—19-2 








18 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is $11 per acre as against $62 per 
acre. The reason that the acreage is large is that it is perfectly 
evident that we have no mountains to shoot against, and have to 
allow for the full range of the guns. 

Senator McKellar. Then, we will have three camps in which ap¬ 
proximately 150,000 troops, Field Artillery troops, can be trained 
after the war—a machine-gun camp? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; I might take up the ma¬ 
chine-gun camp. 

Senator McKellar. There are two. That would be 100,000. That 
is a large proportion, is it not? Does not that portend a pretty big 
Army that we have got to care for? 

Senator Thomas. We have to back up the league of nations. 

Senator Hitchcock. Before you come to that matter, you have 
down there at Aberdeen a proving ground of a very large number 
of acres. What is the acreage there? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Between 30,000 and 35,000 acres. 

Senator Hitchcock. Is it not possible to combine the two uses? 
You will not be proving very much, and we already own that ground, 
I understand, and it has been used for artillery practice. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We would have to give it up en¬ 
tirely as a proving ground if we used it for training purposes. 

Senator Hitchcock. You would not want to train while you were 
proving. There is not going to be an incessant firing there.. Is there 
not any way of economizing, as individuals do? Has the Govern¬ 
ment always to go on the most expensive way? If there are 30,000 
acres there it would seem that they would not always be used for 
proving operations. Could you not use it part of the time for one 
purpose and part of the time for the other? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. They tell me they can not. I have 
discussed that with the military division officers and they tell me 
that it can not be done. 

Senator McKellar. What is the reason for it ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The fact that in proving the land 
that lies between the muzzle of the gun and the range of those guns 
can not be used by troops because they are shooting live shells and 
you have got targets everywhere, and we have to keep everybody off 
those areas. Secondly, I want to say that the land at Aberdeen is 
very largely marsh land, which is not at all adaptable for training. 
I think we could get very little training in that area. 

Secretary Baker. Aberdeen is over there at one of the indentations 
of the bay, here and there, and scattered all around through the 
marsh. It would not do for training at all. 

Senator Thomas. Another reason, I remember, and as you know, 
is that delegations from every State are insisting that the State shall 
have one of these appropriations, and one of these donations, so, 
necessarily, the department is obliged to some degree to recognize 
that situation. 

Senator Weeks. I went over the Aberdeen proving ground very 
carefully, and it seemed’ to me there was ample space there for drill 
purposes, and, of course, even if you are testing guns or ammuni¬ 
tion, you might well break joints in drilling operations. I am not 
advocating particularly that that should be used for that purpose, 
but it does not seem to me that the reasons for not doing it are sound. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


19 


You could prove two or three hours a day and do the drilling at the 
hours that you usually would. While there are indentations in the 
bays, and while there is some marsh, there is a very large amount of 
high, dry land there—I should say ample for the purpose of drilling 
two brigades at one time in one location. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Our people have all reported just the 
opposite. I am not an expert, of course. 

Senator Hitchcock. Congress is very much impressed, of course, 
with the fact that there ought to be a much more definite purpose 
of economy in the administrative branch of the Government, and we 
are a little afraid that the General Staff never considers that, which 
is being borne in on us all the time by the demands to reduce taxes. 

Senator McKellar. The war is over, and we have got to cut ex¬ 
penses in some way. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. If it is true that the General Staff 
does not consider expense, I can assure you that the Secretary and I 
do. We watch this matter very closely. 

Senator Fletcher. As I understand the situation here, provision 
was made and you spent most of the money that was required? 

Senator Hitchcock. In the case of this item, it came up before the 
Committee on Appropriations of the House. I think it involved 
$17,000,000. Of course, that is a mere trifle, but it seems they want 
Congress to appropriate that additional amount of money- 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. For the two. 

Senator Hitchcock. For the Fayetteville project alone, as I re¬ 
call it. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. There is no question of any appro-* 
priation here. I think the money is already in hand. 

Secretary Baker. The Senator is referring to a previous appropri¬ 
ation by the Appropriations Committee, that Senator Martin has in 
hand. 

Senator Hitchcock. It does seem to involve additional money, and 
I know that this committee, and every other committee in the 
House and Senate, is impressed with the fact that there has to be 
much more attention paid to reducing expenses. 

Secretary Baker. The assistant secretary has not brought out 
the point that has controlled his judgment and mine to a very large 
extent, and that is the question of economy to which you refer. 
Here is this enormous expenditure for this land, involving tens of 
millions of dollars. The abandonment of these projects means, of 
course, no salvage of that investment. As in the case to which he 
is referring, of the land value at Fayetteville, the entire estimated 
expense of the land is only a million and a half dollars, while the 
money already actually expended there in roads, sewers, water sys¬ 
tems, structures, warehouses, sidetracks of railroads, and all that sort 
of thing, runs up to $8,000,000 or $9,000,000. how, simply to cut off 
and abandon that, quite apart from the equitable expectation of the 
people we dispossessed, means no salvage of that enormous invest¬ 
ment, If, on the other hand, the Government buys this land and 
pays a million and a half of residue, and owns it, quite apart from 
the use we get out of it, we have a very much better opportunity of 
salvaging some of the investment. It is that business aspect of 
it that I was particularly anxious to have the committee address its 
thought to. 



20 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Hitchcock. Has the department taken any thought as to 
the effect on the State or county of taking such a very large body 
of land out of its tax valuations for the county? 

Secretary Baker. Yes; take the Fayetteville situation, for in¬ 
stance. Mr. Crowell referred to the fact that 10 per cent of this 
land is cultivatable land. As a matter of fact, it is almost the un¬ 
cultivated section of North Carolina; it is a great sand belt and only 
within the last two or three years has anybody been induced to go 
into it for farming purposes. In some conventions and gatherings 
they had in North Carolina, an effort was made to divert some of 
the people from the mountain section over to this sand belt with a 
view to raising tobacco, and perhaps cotton. Few farmers have 
gone in, and they put in every modern improvement, so we are not 
dispossessing an ancient agricultural section. The section has not 
been one that has produced any extensive revenue to the State of 
North Carolina or to the counties of which it is a part. It is a very 
sparsely settled section of the State. 

Senator Hitchcock. Is anything done in cases of this sort to 
secure from the legislature of the State a cession of sovereignty over 
property before the Government invests this large sum of money? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; nothing of that sort was done 
in this case because of the emergency of the war. 

Senator Hitchcock. Heretofore that has been the practice that 
the Government has made that reservation. 

Secretary Baker. I think that has been the uniform practice with 
regard to the permanent posts, but in the war we did not stop. The 
legislatures were not in session and we simply took the land in order 
to train the people. 

Senator Sutherland. I think that has already been done in 
training in the Appalachian forests. 

Secretary Baker. The purchases in the Appalachian forests have 
been embarrassed somewhat by the hostile legislation of some of 
the States. One of the States recently passed a law relieving some 
embarrassments. Perhaps Senator McKellar will remember that 
we had a controversy with the State of Tennessee about that. They 
passed some legislation discouraging purchases in the Appalachian 
forests, and the forest commission discontinued the purchases in 
Tennessee until the readjustment had been brought about by their 
legislature. 

Senator McKellar. I do not recall how that was. 

Secretary Baker. The controversy is entirely disposed of now. 
It was rather restrictive legislation on the part of the State as to 
purchases already made. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Answering Senator Hitchcock’s 
questions specifically—that portion of the area of Camp Bragg, 
lying within the bounds of Hoke County, embraces 90,523 acres, and 
the total area of Hoke County is 314,242 acres, therefore, the camp 
area within the county represents approximately 29 per cent of the 
total acreage within the county. The total assessed valuation of 
the taxable property in Hoke County is $3,992,009. The total assessed 
valuation of the area embraced within the limits of Camp Bragg, 
within Hoke County, is $434,780, which represents approximately 
only 11 per cent of the taxable resources of the county. The total 
number of poll taxes appearing upon the tax records of Hoke County 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


21 


is 1,602. The total number of poll taxes appearing upon the records 
as assessed against the area of Camp Bragg, within the limits of 
Hoke County, is 178, or approximately 11 per cent. Assuming one 
poll tax per family, which is a very low estimate, there are no more 
than 178 families within the area of Camp Bragg, in Hoke County. 

Senator Thomas. Is this still the North Carolina project? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. This is still answering the question 
as to the effect on the county. So that we are taking up about 11 
per cent of the taxable amount of the county and of the whole poll 
tax. 

Senator Hitchcock. What is the attitude of the county officials 
under those circumstances? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We have heard nothing from the 
county officials. They were very anxious to have us go down and 
locate there. 

Secretary Baker. I have heard, not so much from the officials but 
business men of the communities, and they all feel that there would 
grow up around any of these camp places business that would min¬ 
ister to the soldier population, and that there would be appreciation 
of adjacent land value that would be enough to compensate for the 
loss of the tax land. 

Senator Thomas. It would be a strange community that would 
object to it. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We have had violent opposition 
from some of the men that we were dispossessing because we have 
not paid them their money. That is the great difficulty, the great 
hardship, of dispossessing these people and taking away their farms 
and not paying them for them. 

Senator Hitchcock. What is the reason the money has not been 
paid? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We simply held it up since the 
armistice until we could consult with Congress. 

Senator McKellar. What percentage has not been paid for? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I gave those figures. In this par¬ 
ticular case it was very small. 

Senator Knox. I think you had the right to take it under the cir¬ 
cumstances, as you did. The Government thereby incurred a lia¬ 
bility to these people that they are entitled to enforce. I do not know 
that you have any option in the matter. If you take their land and 
dispossess them, and that was a lawful taking, the Government is a 
debtor to those people for the value of that land. 

Senator Fletcher. You were proceeding to condemn? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; but we could not get it at a 
reasonable figure. 

The Chairman. But the great part of the expense has been in im¬ 
provements, and not in the land value? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. 

Secretary Baker. The land values are relatively small in each case. 

Senator McKellar. Have we enough improvements to do training 
in peace times? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We spent over $8,000,000 in con¬ 
struction. 

Senator McKellar. Would that not be sufficient for any peace¬ 
time training? Why should we spend more money? 


22 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Assistant Secretary Crowell. Merely because it is not balanced. 
It is just the way the construction happened to be. 

Senator McKellar. Are we using it now, or in war time? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; we have men in all of those 
camps that I am speaking of. 

Senator McKellar. If you had men there and were training them 
there during the war when they were very necessary, why should we 
add to the construction now that the war is over. It seems to me that 
any construction at any of these camps, unless it is some repairing or 
something like that, is absolutely a waste of the people’s money. I 
think every bit of the construction at all of these camps should be 
stopped and stopped instantly. 

Senator Beckham. What I understand is, Mr. Secretary, that you 
are not proposing to expend money on construction now as much as 
the purchase of the land itself? 

Senator McKellar. I think you are mistaken. 

Secretary Crowell has just stated that it is contemplated to put— 
how many millions in construction at this place since peace has been 
declared ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I stated that, but I do not recall it 
at the moment. I will have to look it up. 

Senator McKellar. I understood you to say $16,000,000, but I am 
not sure. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. About $10,000,000 is the total esti¬ 
mate. We have spent over $8,000,000 already. 

Senator McKellar. So you will have about $2,000,000 more? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. What possible service could that do? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is merely rounding up of con¬ 
struction. A building may be under roof, but it will cost consider¬ 
able to make it serviceable. 

Senator McKellar. You certainly would not need in peace time 
any additional construction. You have all the construction there 
now that you possibly need. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is not completed. These build¬ 
ings are not completed. 

Senator McKellar. I know, but suppose they are not. Suppose 
you just take them and tear them down or throw them away or sell 
them to anybody who comes along, those incomplete ones—you have 
enough completed ones to train all the soldiers that you can possibly 
train at that place; is that not correct? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; it is not correct at all. The 
chief of Field Artillery has stated definitely that this is the least 
we can get along with, no matter what the size of the Army is. We 
have cut this down from six brigades to two brigades. 

Senator McKellar. You have not enough construction there to 
cover two brigades ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. These buildings were not completed. 
The buildings might be under roof and yet require considerable ex¬ 
penditure to make them livable. If we start a water system we must 
finish it. We can not cut it off. If we start sewers we have to com¬ 
plete them. 

Senator Thomas. Your original plan contemplated six brigades; 
your present plan contemplates two. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


23 


Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. 

Senator Thomas. Why could not the construction be contracted to 
two brigades, and the material on the ground or in the unfinished 
structures, be used for the completion of such structures as are neces¬ 
sary for only two brigades? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. That is exactly what has been done. 

Senator McKellar. Have you got more than two brigades at this 
camp now ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir. 

Senator McKellar. It is reduced to two now ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. I mean how many brigades have you there 
now—how many troops have you been training there? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not know. 

Senator McKellar. We ought to know these facts. How can we 
possibly pass upon it unless we have the facts. According to your 
figures the War Department—or this board or committee—is vir¬ 
tually contemplating the completion of these various camps for a 
peace-time organization of the Army which is going to be larger than 
what we have actually been using in war times. Now, to my mind 
that ought not to be done. It seems to me w 7 e ought to have the facts 
here before us and there ought not to be any further construction 
unless it is absolutely necessary for two brigades. If you have enough 
buildings there and enough sewerage there to look after the two 
brigades that you expect to have there in peace times, surely any 
other construction ought not to be made regardless of whether it is 
started or not. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. That is exactly what we did; we 
looked the situation over very carefully and found that the two- 
brigade camp was so far along that it was economical to complete 
it. and we immediately reduced the camp to a two-brigade camp. 

Senator McKellar. As I understand it- 

Senator Kirby. Senator McKellar, it seems to me that the Secre¬ 
tary had stated, in a way, heretofore, that the construction was not 
balanced; in other words, they might have finished the buildings 
without completing the sewers, or without completing the railroad 
tracks, or without completing the waterworks system, and it took 
this much expenditure to complete the camp. 

Senator McKellar. That is just what I am trying to get at. He 
does not seem to know how it was himself, and I would like to 
know. I do not want to vote for a cat in a bag. I want to know 
what we have down there at Camp Bragg before we authorize the 
completion of it, because I do not think we ought to authorize the 
completion of these big camps in peace times, because we are not 
going to have a very large Army. If this Congress does not keep 
down the Army the American people will put representatives here 
who will cut it down. . . 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Of course a building 80 per cent 
completed is of no use to anybody. 

Senator McKellar. If you go on and complete it you lose that 
20 per cent of good money and the building will be still of no use to 
anybody; in other words, suppose it is 80 per cent completed, and 
vou are not going to use it at all after completion, what is the use 
of completing it? 


24 


LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Assistant Secretary Crowell. But the Chief of Artillery tells us 
it is absolutely necessary. In other words, we have cut this down to 
the bone already. 

Senator McKellar. I would like to have the facts in the matter. 
I wish you would report how many you can take care of now— 
whether you can take care of two brigades—and what the exact 
physical facts are before we authorize the expenditure of more 
money. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I have given you the exact number 
of men. I think it is in the record here somewhere, but I will be 
very glad, if anything is not in there, to give it to you later. 

Senator McKellar. All right. 

Note. —Accommodations at present (Jan. 7, 1919) are as follows: Camp 
Knox—One brigade is being accommodated by doing considerable work on its 
own buildings; a second brigade can be accommodated shortly, but will have to 
do a great deal of work on the buildings to make them habitable. Camp Bragg— 
There are no accommodations at present; one brigade can be accommodated in 
about six weeks and another brigade still later. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. May I proceed with Camp Benning ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Senator Beckham. There is one matter that I have not very 
clearly in mind in the case of Camp Bragg. I understand that the 
estimate of the total cost is approximately $10,000,000? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. 

Senator Beckham. And of that $10,000,000 you have expended so 
far something over $8,000,000? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes.. 

Senator Beckham. That leaves a balance of less than $2,000,000. 
What is proposed to be done with that balance, to finish the work 
already done, or does it include also the purchase of the land ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; merely to finish the work 
underway. 

Senator Beckham. And then the purchase of the land would be in 
addition to that? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; a million and a half. 

Senator Beckham. A million and a half, making the total cost, 
then, something like $11,500,000. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. I have been twice called out of the room, and you 
may have testified to these points in my absence. How many acres 
of land is it contemplated to purchase at Camp Bragg ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. One hundred and thirty thousand 
acres. 

Senator Thomas. I thought you said 140,000 acres? 

Senator McKellar. No; it is 40,000 acres in Kentucky. It is 
130,000 at this camp. 

Assistant. Secretary Crowell. I said 135,000, and some of my 
records show 140,000. It is indeterminate, within a few thousand 
acres. 

Senator New. I have here a memorandum that says 130,000, so it 
is approximately 135,000 acres of land. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. Is any portion of that land owned by any one set 
of people ? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


25 


Assistant Secretary Crowell. I have gone into that in a brief 
way. About 10 per cent is cultivated land. 

Senator Thomas. Owned by a considerable number of people, I 
imagine? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; the greater part of it is 
holdings of small families. 

Senator New. I have been told that something like 44,000 acres of 
it in one tract belongs to two or three gentlemen, or at least a very 
few gentlemen, who have been using it as a game preserve. Do you 
know anything about that? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; I do not. 

Senator New. I have the names of two or three that have been 
furnished me as part owners of that tract. I know nothing what¬ 
ever about it, but the name of ex-Congressman Kent, of California, 
is given as one of the owners of it, and one of the members of one 
of the Federal boards is given as another owner of it. Do you know 
anything as to the correctness of the facts in that case? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not. I have no* knowledge of 
the name of any owner or owners of that piece of property. It is all 
in our records. 

Senator McKellar. We can call on Mr. Kent and that can be 
ascertained. Will you do us the kindness to state whether Mr. Kent 
is connected with it and who his associates are? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. I think it is as well to clear the matter up 
and get all the facts. 

Senator New. Can the Secretary submit a list of the tract owners? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I shall be very glad to. 

The Chairman. Limited to tracts over 1,000 acres. 

Senator New. Yes; we do not care about these little fellows. 

Senator Weeks. I was suggesting in addition, Mr. Secretary, that 
if the large tracts were owned by an association or corporation, if it 
is not too voluminous, the names and addresses of the members of 
the association be included. 

Senator McKellar. And let that apply to all three camps. 

OWNERS OF TRACTS LARGER THAN 1,000 ACRES AT CAMPS BENNING, BRAGG, AND KNOX.. 

These lists are incomplete, and wefe furnished by the Real Estate Section, 
Purchase, Storage, and Traffic Division, General Staff. The records are not yet 
all in from the field. 


Camp Benning: Acres. 

Adams, I. F., estate-.- T - 1,190 

Bullock, O. C__ 2, 000 

Bussey, Arthur_ 1, 782 

Bradley, W. C., Co_1_ 2,338 

Black, Mrs. L. R_ 1,413 

Pou, John Dozier, et al_- 1, 200 

Psalmonds, J. S- 1,620 

Rich, Mrs. Sarah A_ 1, 622 

Smith, Mrs. Lula K- 2,168 

Schley, Mrs. F. V___ 1,106 

Wynn, E. J_ 1, 994 

Camp Bragg: 

W. M. Blue--- 2,990 

N. S. Blue_12,000 

W. A. Blue_ 3, 500 
















26 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Camp Bragg—Continued. 


Mary S. Blue___ 2,500 

A. D. McGill_ 2, 405 

John H. Rogers___ 2, 780 

Maggia Sikes___ 2, 780 

Overhill’s Club_ 8, 000 


Real Estate Section (Mr. Woods) states he knows nothing of any holdings by 
Mr. Kent. If such existed and were large, he says he would surely know. 

As to Camp Knox, no figures are available at the Office of the Real Estate 
Section, but it is stated definitely by Mr. Woods and Maj. Holden that practi¬ 
cally no large tracts exist. The area comprises many small farms. 

Of the large owners at Camp Bragg, Mr. Woods states that the Overhill’s 
Club and Mr. N. S. Blue, who are the largest holders, are actively opposed to 
having their tracts included in the camp site. 

Senator Weeks. There is one more question that I would like to 
ask. Has the War Department made any estimate of the annual 
cost of maintenance of one of these camps? Take Camp Bragg, for 
example, which has cost $10,000,000. What would the annual cost 
of maintenance be after the war? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; I will furnish that. 

ANNUAL MAINTENANCE COST OF A CAMP AFTER THE WAR. 

It is estimated that it would require a battalion of Infantry (approximately 
1,000 men) for necessary guard, police, and fire protection. The cost of main¬ 
taining this force would be the same whether on this duty or some other. They 
would be.part of the Military Establishment. Cost of repairs to buildings and 
utilities would be negligible. 

Senator Sutherland. What effect will this have on the Toby- 
hanna. Pa., artillery proving camp, where the Government owns 
something like 20,000 acres of ground, bought for the purpose of an 
artillery proving ground? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The ranges are not long enough at 
Tobyhanna to be used for this purpose, and the climate is very 
much against it. In the winter it can not be used at Tobyhanna. 

Senator Sutherland. Do you propose then to just abandon that 
place up there, if it is not used for artillery purposes? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can not state. 

Senator Sutherland. Is that not a very large waste of money? 
‘It seems to me to have been a very serious blunder to have pur¬ 
chased so large a tract up there without having in view the length 
of the range. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can not say what the purpose was 
when that was purchased. I do not know anything about it. 

Senator McKellar. When was it purchased, this year ? 

The Chairman. Oh, no; a number of years ago. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I will say that a good many of 
these tracts were carefully looked over before they were determined 
upon. 

Senator Weeks. Was not Tobyhanna intended very largely as a 
training camp for the Federal Government in the summer months! 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can not answer that. 

Senator Sutherland. Tobyhanna, as I recall, was selected by one 
of the best artillery officers in the Army. He is now a major gen¬ 
eral in France. He examined all the sites all over the country and 







LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


27 


finally selected Tobyhanna, Pa., as affording the best advantages for 
the artillery proving ground. It was so stated to me, and I was 
wondering whether it would entail the absolute abandonment of that 
expensive site. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I know nothing about Tobyhanna, 
Senator. 

Senator Sutherland. The climate there a good part of the year 
must be very fine. There would probably be three or four months 
in the year when it would not be good. The mountain climate there 
is most desirable in the summer. It is a very healthful climate and 
the troops up there I know in the summer of 1916 were all well 
cared for and in a very high degree of health. 

Senator Knox. Tobyhanna is on the summit of the Kittatinny 
Mountains; it is a very delightful climate. The whole place is built 
up with resorts. Of course it is a very bad climate in the winter¬ 
time; there is no question about that. 

Senator Kirby. I suggest that that matter is not under investiga¬ 
tion at this time. We have under consideration this last camp there. 
I would like to hear the Assistant Secretary on the Georgia camp 
before we get through. 

Senator New'. I would like to ask one other question. I understand 
that there is a post at Sparta, Wis. Tasked the Secretary of War 
about that when he w as on the stand, and he said he did not know 7 
about it. Have you any information about that—what is it proposed 
to do with it ? 

Assistant Secretary Crow ell. No, sir. I think it would be best to 
get Gen. Snow' before you to answer such questions, because mv in¬ 
formation comes from him. 

Senator New. Very good. 

Senator Weeks. Mr. Secretary, of course he could not decide these 
questions of policy at all. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; but he would be familiar with 
the use of a camp such as Tobyhanna. 

Senator Weeks. The Senator from Indiana asked what disposi¬ 
tion it was intended to make of that camp. That would be a matter 
of policy. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Well, he would be familiar with it. 
I can not recall it now. We have a good many such cases. 

Senator Tiiomas. I suppose you came here, Mr. Secretary, upon 
these three matters particularly? 

Assistant Secretary Crow t ell. Yes, sir. Camp Benning is located 
at Columbus, Ga. This camp originally provided cantonments for 
approximately 26,000 officers and men; it was contemplated to estab¬ 
lish an Infantry school of arms to train 4,000 graduates of central 
officers’ training school for Infantry each month. The course w*as to 
be for three months, making a total of 12,000 students in attendance. 
After the armistice this project was changed very materially. The 
size of this school w 7 as reduced and other schools w 7 ere added to it. 
The present project provides a main Infantry technical training 
school, including school of arms for Infantry and Cavalry, machine- 
gun school for all arms, tank school, semipermanent cantonment con¬ 
struction for approximately 10,000 officers and men, being reduced 
from 26,000. 


28 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator McKellar. Could you not use some of the various canton¬ 
ments that are obliged to go out of use after this war is over rather 
than build a new one or buy a new one at this time ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The committees that have investi¬ 
gated say that we can not. 

Senator McKellar. Regardless of committees—let us dispose of 
them for a minute and talk about it as men, with our own views as 
men, without regard to committee recommendations. Here we have 
camps, nearly a half dozen camps—in Georgia I think there are 
five; no doubt splendid places for them—several in North Carolina, 
South Carolina, Virginia, Indiana, New York, Massachusetts, and 
elsewhere. Now, you have constructed these camps with waterworks 
and houses, and you have every advantage and every comfort that can 
be obtained for the young men preparing in any military branch. 
With all these camps already built and paid for, is it not possible that 
we could use some of them for schools rather than spend twenty-odd 
millions of dollars, or whatever the amount is, in building a new one 
at Columbus ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Of course, none of them have the 
acreage that is involved here for this school of fire. 

Senator McKellar. Can we not use one of them in North Caro¬ 
lina, or one of the Kentucky camps, as a school of fire ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Not if we are going to use them 
for artillery purposes. 

Senator Sutherland. What is the acreage in this land? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. One hundred and thirty thousand 
acres at Columbus. 

Senator Thomas. You say that can not be done. Is it contemplated 
that Camp Bragg, for instance, is to be used continuously for artil¬ 
lery practice? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; Camp Benning I am speak¬ 
ing of. 

Senator Thomas. But I am talking about this North Carolina 
project. It seems to me that with two brigades there they will not 
be practicing training for artillery all the time. Now, why could 
not a certain number of months be set apart for artillery training 
and a certain number for rifle shooting? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. By cutting out some of the artil¬ 
lery training you could undoubtedly put in some rifle training. 

Senator Thomas. Is it really contemplated in time of peace to 
keep two brigades there in artillery training every day of the year? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Thomas. Constantly? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir—some brigades, of course. 

Senator McKellar. How many brigades are we going to have of 
Artillery ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not know. 

Senator Thomas. Do you not think before we spend twenty-odd 
millions on that camp that we ought to know pretty well what we 
are going to have, when we have so many camps and so much in 
all parts of the country and in all kinds o*f land? Would it not be 
the part of wisdom to let us find out what our program is going to 
be before we acquire these large tracts of land and put sewers in 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


29 


and put buildings on them that will cost so many millions of 
dollars? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Unfortunately this was largely done 
before the armistice. If we were treating with it anew to-day, we 
might take very different action. 

Senator Fletcher. Let us hear what has been done on it. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Compared to the others, very little 
has been done at Camp Benning. 

Senator Sutherland. I was told by an officer who returned from 
that camp that his judgment was that we did not need anything 
like the number of acres contemplated. He asked the officers who 
were promoting the larger scheme what they wanted with so much 
land, and they said it would be very nice for a game preserve for 
the officers who came to that camp; they would want to go out be¬ 
tween times and hunt, and it would be very useful to them to have 
it there as a game preserve for officers. 

Senator McKellar. If you have this game preserve in North Caro¬ 
lina, why have another one down in that locality? Could we not 
confine the officers to the game preserve in North Carolina, and not 
give them another one in Georgia? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I have, and will present, maps 
of Benning and Bragg showing how it is intended to use the acreage. 
I will say that these estimates are somewhat tentative and will be 
reduced, of course, if possible. In my opinion, though, a very large 
acreage is involved in each of these camps. 

Senator Sutherland. It would not be necessary to have such a 
range for a small-arms range for artillery? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. The range for small arms would not be so 
great ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No. Of course, we are having here 
a combination of rifles and machine guns. 

Senator Sutherland. You can do a great deal of shooting over 
five or six thousand acres with small arms. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We have had to be perfectly safe 
and have enough. It is economy to do it. 

Senator Kirby. You use about 10,000 acres at Camp Pike for a 
maneuvering ground, with 60,000 men in training there. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; but not for a school of fire. 

Senator Kirby. But they train the Infantry there—of 60,000 men. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. They drill them and train them to 
shoot at a target, but no maneuvering. 

Senator Thomas. What is the acreage at Camp Benning? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. 130,000 acres. 

Senator Kirby. And the number of people there—10,000 ? 

Assistant Secretarv Crowell. 10,000 officers and men to be trained; 
yes, sir. The estimated cost of the land is $3,600,000, which is be¬ 
tween $25 and $30 an acre. 

Senator McKellar. How much has been spent? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. About a million dollars; and the 
project calls for a total of $14,124,900. 

Senator McKellar. How much has been spent for construction ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. About a million dollars. 


30 


LAND FOE ART1LIJERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator McIvellar. And the purchase of the land? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The purchase of the land is very 
small. I will go into that matter. 

Senator McKellar. How much is proposed to be spent? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. About $14,000,000 to complete the 
project on construction. Prior to the signing of the armistice-- 

Senator Thomas. Let me ask you a question there. I dislike to 
interrupt you so much; but is the work of improvement going on 
there also? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; on this new project. 

Senator Thomas. I think that ought to be stopped until it is de¬ 
termined what is to be done in the matter, for the reason that your 
initial expenditures there are very slight. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. It has been slowed down as far as 
we thought practicable. In all of these projects the number of men 
had been tremendously reduced, but the buildings in the other two 
camps were in such state that it was impossible to stop. 

Senator Thomas. I am talking about this one. I think that the 
expenditure is so small, comparatively' speaking, that it would be 
well to suspend it altogether until some legislation be enacted. That 
is my judgment about it. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. That can readily be done. No land 
had actually been acquired prior to the armistice. Since that time 
25 or 30 families have actually been moved from the tract in and near 
the temporary rifle range. All other families have been notified that 
they must vacate, some by February 1, others March 1, and still 
others April 1. It is estimated that the entire tract embraces ap¬ 
proximately 30,000 acres of cultivatable land. All tenants or hold¬ 
ers have been notified that they would not be able to produce a crop 
this coming year on these lands and should make arrangements ac¬ 
cordingly. In consequence some have bought elsewhere, or obligated 
themselves to buy elsewhere, and, in general, it may be said that all 
tenants of cultivated land within the reservation have made arrange¬ 
ments for vacation. In some instances a few dairies owning blooded 
stock have disposed of their dairy stock upon the representation to 
them that they would be required to vacate their present holdings. 
Land has been actually purchased at Camp Benning in the sum of 
$29,818.75. My statement that no land had been purchased was 
wrong; $29,818.75 has been spent. 

Senator McKellar. $29,000 worth of land has been purchased? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. sir; additional commitments 
have been made for the purchase of land amounting to $118,975.75. 

The Chairman. Were these commitments all before the armistice 
was signed? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. It was all before the 1st of Decem¬ 
ber. It took a few days after the armistice to marshall these facts 
and get them together. 

Senator Sutherland. Are these in the shape of options rather 
than absolute contracts to purchase that land down there ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Do you mean the commitments? 

Senator Sutherland. Yes; for that land. Is it all in the shape of 
options, which need not be exercised, rather than contracts for pur¬ 
chase and sale? 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 31 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think not. The commitments to 
purchase are, I think, very definite. 

Senator Sutherland. 1 understood it was largely in the form of 
options, that real, estate men there were trying to get in as mu h 
area as possible for the purpose of gain. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. They, of course, often take options, 
but we would not regard an option as a commitment in any way. 
An option we can refuse to exercise. 

Senator McKellar. How many men are there now being trained? 
Are there any? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell* Yes, sir; there are men in the grad¬ 
uating class at West Point there. I think that is all—some few hun¬ 
dred. 

Senator McKellar. In a case like that where you have spent all 
told a million dollars, and it will probably cost you another million 
dollars—I am just assuming; I do not know how much it may cost 
you; it may cost you a hundred thousand dollars, and you may get 
out of it by paying that much to these owners of this land for their 
temporary dispossession—but assuming it is another million dollars, 
would it not be the wise plan with all of the camps that you have in 
this country where these schools can be put, where you have no 
present use for them, where you do not know what the policy is 
going to be in the future, and you can not tell until legislation is 
passed—would it not be a wise business policy to send some one down 
there and to pay those people whom you had damaged what is right 
and fair and take your loss and abandon that project rather than to 
spend $13,000,000 more to carry it out, when you do not know 
Avhether you are going to use it after you get through except for 
temporary purposes? It is impossible to tell at this time whether 
you will do it. Now, after we have spent all the immense sums that 
we have spent in this Avar A\ T ould it not be the part of wisdom to cut 
off $13,000,000 or $12,000,000 doAvn there, because I know it would 
not cost over a million dollars to pay all the damages in full measure, 
and they ought to be paid in full measure. That is the Avay it strikes 
me. I do not want to do anything to hurt Senator Smith’s State 
in any way or his people in any way, but it does look to me as if it 
were just simply throAving away $13,000,000. I can not see it in any 
other light. You have these various other camps—dozens of them 
and scores of them, and they ought to be used. If there is any neces¬ 
sity for it, let us do it; use them someAvhere else. We have camps 
amply large in Senator Knox’s State. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Since the Senator has referred to me 
in connection with this matter, I Avant to say that the officers in 
charge insist that th y are obliged to lnn'e oA T er a hundred thousand 
acres of land. The selection of this place was entirely without any 
suggestion from me. It Avas the result of several commissions of 
officers who studied what they wanted. 

Senator McKellar. That Avas for Avar-time purposes and not 
peace-time purposes. • 

Senator Smith of Georgia. As a permanent camp it Avas selected. 
It Avas a permanent training school for this special thing that I do 
not exactly understand. 

Senator McKellar. If that is the case, Senator, I doubt very much 
Avhether the War Department has authority to spend that money 


32 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


under a lump-sum appropriation for a permanent camp. The money 
we appropriated was for war purposes and not for permanent pur¬ 
poses. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. What I was saying was this, that in 
connection with the selection of the location for war purposes they 
also expressed the view that they ought to select for war purposes 
a place that would be useful for permanent use as a matter of 
economy and saving. It is something entirely new to me; it is a 
matter of revelation. I was with the general commanding there a 
few days ago at Camp Gordon, and he stated that it was utterly 
impossible to train to-day for short-arms work and machine-gun 
work and make them proficient without a very large tract of land. 

Senator McKellar. If we keep up this kind of thing we had 
better all get busy with bond issues. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I simply wanted to make that reply, 
as you referred to me in connection with the matter. This selection 
was purely a military selection, and so far as its continuation is 
concerned I am in favor of treating it solely as a matter of public 
policy. 

Senator Beckham. I may say that as to the West Point selection, 
I knew nothing about it. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. They simply astounded me. I said, 
“ What do you want all this land for; why don’t you cut it ? These 
people are kicking about your taking their land and making all 
sorts of a row; why don’t you cut it down ? ” Experts in the Army 
just astounded me with their discussion and claim of the size and 
revolution in military affairs from what we had all thought was 
required in times past. 

The Chairman. Do you gentlemen want to ask any further ques¬ 
tions about this particular camp ? 

Senator Fletcher. Do I understand that the department recom¬ 
mends carrying out the plans as the}” have already modified it? 

Secretary Baker. The military men all do. Mr. Crowell and I 
have discussed it quite apart from our military associates, and while 
we want to present a united view, as far as possible, both he and I 
are more doubtful about the Georgia camp than either of the others, 
purely on the ground that the involvement there is very much less 
than at the other places, and, as Senator McKellar has pointed out, 
it would be possible to compensate and settle with these people on 
the terms they justly ask, and they would have been compensated if 
the Government had not intervened—at a relatively small outlay. 

The Chairman. How much money will it take to complete all 
these projects, and how much will it take to complete the two Ken¬ 
tucky projects, leaving out the Georgia project? 

Secretary Baker. You mean the Kentucky and North Carolina 
projects? 

The Chairman. Yes; Kentucky and North Carolina. 

Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell has those figures. 

The Chairman. I would like to have the amount. First, the total 
amount to complete all of them, and, secondly, the amount that 
would be necessary to complete the North Carolina and Kentucky 
projects alone. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I will furnish you with that. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


33 


The Chairman. Will you add that to your testimony? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. 

Amount to complete (exclusive of land) : 

Benning_$12, 500, 000 

Bragg- 2, 000, 000 

Knox- 3, 733, 000 


Total_ 17, 233, 000 

Camps Bragg and Knox only_ 5, 733, 000 


Senator Sutherland. I have some data regarding a certain project 
and would like to have this left open. I have it in my office. I did 
not know that there was to be a hearing or I should have brought it 
here. 

Senator New. What is Camp Polk? 

Secretary Baker. Camp Polk was proposed to be at Raleigh, N. C.. 
and was abandoned. That was my impression. That was intended 
to be a tank camp at Raleigh and* was abandoned immediately on 
the signing of the armistice. 

Senator New. Now, a man who claims to have seen Camp Polk 
writes to me and speaks of waste there, and disregard of the value 
of the Government property that there is there. He says: 

A quartermaster told me that he knew absolutely nothing about any au¬ 
thority to sell or dispose of any of the lumber on the ground, that there were 
5,500,000 feet of lumber there unloaded, and thrown out about the grounds, 
“just as you would handle cordwood, not even piled and not covered; flooring, 
ceiling, siding, dressed lumber, and some of it under water, damaged and 
going to waste.” 

That bespeaks a condition there, of course, that is expensive to the 
Government, if it is proved, and it is reported to me by a man who 
says he vouches for the correctness of it. 

Secretary Baker. Obviously that ought to be looked into. I am 
not sure that Camp Polk is the proposed Raleigh camp, but Mr. 
Crowell will make a note of that. 

Senator New. He simply speaks of it here as Camp Polk. 

Secretary Baker. I am not sure that that is the place but we will 
find out about it. Of course the whole subject of salvaging unused 
lumber in these abandoned projects is being attempted to be brought 
together and doubtless it is in process, but this may have been over¬ 
looked. 

Senator Fletcher. Mr. Chairman, when do we expect to have a 
hearing on this Hitchcock bill ? I think that ought to be gone into. 

Senator New. Why can we not have it right away? 

The Chairman. Are you ready to proceed with the discussion of 
the bill for reimbursing the contractors? 

Secretary Baker. Mr. Chairman, I can stay only until 1 o'clock. 
This is Cabinet meeting day, but Mr. Crowell knows more about that 
than I. He has been conferring with the comptroller and the lawyers, 
and he really has had charge of it. 

Senator Fletcher. We might have the Secretary’s statement now. 

Secretary Baker. I shall be glad to do that. 

Senator Fletcher. Mr. Secretary, will you state your objections to 
the Hitchcock bill, Senate bill 5261? 

Secretary Baker. I have this view of it: The important thing is to 
get »as speedily as possible an adjustment which will be fair to the 

99137—19-3 








34 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Government in the matter of the amount to be paid, in order that 
the manufacturers and business men may know exactly how much 
money they are going to get from the Government and turn their 
industries and enterprises back into the ordinary peace-time channels. 

Senator McKellar. Have you examined the Hitchcock bill; and, 
if so, will you tell us your objections to it? 

Secretary Baker. Yes. Let me precede that, if you will, by this 
statement: Immediately upon the signing of the armistice the War 
Department took the machinery which it already had and enlarged 
it and changed its purpose so as to make it a demobilizing rather than 
a mobilizing machinery. The present proposition is this: We have 
an adjustment commission consisting of three men called from civil 
life because of their experience in this sort of thing, their eminence 
and character, and commissioned in the- Army only because it gives 
an opportunity to pay them. 

Senator McKellar. Who are they ? 

Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell has the list. One is a man named 
Lehman, from New York, who is a banker—Mr. Crowell will give 
you the list—one is a former member of the Public Utilities Com¬ 
mission of Virginia, Mr. Garnett; and Mr. Malone, of New York. 

It was a commission appointed for the purpose of hearing and, as 
far as possible, finally determining disagreements between manufac¬ 
turers and the bureaus of the War Department with which they have 
contractual relations. The Ordnance Department has scattered 
around over the United States some 30 district boards. The Quar¬ 
termaster General’s Department has 8 district boards. They are very 
carefully selected. They were selected during the progess of the 
war, and the present working of the business is to have a contract 
which needs adjustment referred to the district board and have the 
district board take it up with the contractor as to the amount which 
they respectively think the Government ought to pay and the terms 
on which the adjustment ought to be made. That is referred here 
to Washington for final approval in order that the same principle 
and theory may run through all these adjustments. If thev can not 
agree, it is referred to the Board of Adjustment, which will then take 
up all the facts in the case and try to reach a fair arrangement. 

That is the organization that is working now all over the LTnited 
States. Now, the objection I feel to the Hitchcock bill has been that 
it undertakes to create entirely new machinery, one which has had no 
familiarity with this and no contact with it at all; a commission to 
be appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, which 
will have to start in and familiarize itself with all this business, and 
then it is to appoint district commissions, and each in turn will have 
to familiarize itself with it; and I am afraid by the time the hear¬ 
ings have been had and cases adjusted by this newly devised ma¬ 
chinery, which is wholly unfamiliar with the business, that so long 
a time will have elapsed as to seriously embarrass the business of the 
country. 

Senator Sutherland. He could appoint these same men, could be 
not? 

Secretary Baker. Yes. 

Senator Kirby. Not all of them. 

Senator Johnson of California. But they would constitute just 
one-third of the commission. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 35 

Senator McKellar. But he could appoint civilians, too, if he 
saw fit. 

Senator Fletcher. Would there not be unavoidable delay? A 
board appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate 
would require two or three months to get organized and after they 
are appointed and confirmed they still have another month or two 
to get their machinery in operation. 

Secretary Baker. I think the business interests of the country 
would be literally paralyzed by any attempt to set up new machinery. 

Senator McKellar. A number of business men appeared before 
the subcommittee on the hearing of this bill, and they thought it 
was fairer than the other bill, because it allowed them 75 per cent 
in the event of a difference of opinion, and gave them the privilege 
of going to the courts for the other. That is one of the things they 
argued, and this provision about the local boards to take it up was 
put in at their request and suggestion, and those that appeared be¬ 
fore us were not dissatisfied with it at all. 

Secretary Baker. Of course, I was not present and I do not know 
how far their minds were addressed to the fact that there is already 
at work a complete and comprehensive machinery against the fair¬ 
ness of which nobody, as far as I know, has ever made a suggestion. 

Senator McKellar. I will make a suggestion right now; I shall 
be very glad to call your attention to it. Take the vehicle division 
of your Army. It is practically in the hands of the Vehicle Trust, 
to be perfectly frank about it. The officers are all connected, or a 
majority of them are connected, directly or indirectly, and I am 
going to call to your attention—I am sorry I have not got it here 
now—a circular letter that was sent out to the contractors by Col. 
Lee, the head of that division, which indicates the kind of settlement 
that is proposed to be made and how the settlement could be made,, 
apparently, to the best advantage of the contractors. It is something 
that you ought to have seen. 

Secretary Baker. Clearly if the letter implies any sort of disre¬ 
gard of public interest I ought to see that at once. 

Senator McKellar. I will send it to you. 

Secretary Baker. But the remedy- 

Senator McKellar. Is not to let these people settle with them¬ 
selves. 

Secretary Baker. Of course, that is obvious. But the remedy is 
not to disturb a system which now covers the United States and 
which knows the business which it has to deal with, by the creation 
of a new agency which has to begin with the A, B, and C’s of 
education. 

Senator McKellar. This same arrangement was carried out in 
1898, after the Spanish AVar, with a great deal of success. 

The Chairman. But the agencies which you have in the War De¬ 
partment taking charge of these adjustments, have not they been the 
very agencies which have entered into the contracts and would they 
not be passing, in a measure, on their own acts? 

Secretary Baker. They would be passing on their own acts, ex¬ 
cept they are, of course, all public officers charged with the responsi¬ 
bility of dealing fairly with the Government, and I know of no basbc 
for suggesting that they would be unfair 



36 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


The Chairman. I do not mean to say that there would be anything 
unfair, but it is human nature for a man to sustain his own act. 

Secretary Baker. I think, so far as their own acts are concerned 
that pertain to the Government, they ought to be sustained. 

The Chairman. Do you think that is also true where they are 
illegally committed to the Government? 

Secretary Baker. I think where it is equitable. 

The Chairman. Where there was no authority of law for their 
action ? 

Secretary Baker. A mere defect of legality, I think, ought not to 
stand in the way of dealing justly with contractors. 

Senator McKellar. The Hitchcock bill provides for that very 
thing- 

Secretary Baker. Exactly. 

Senator McKellar. Where there has been any illegality of that 
kind, to cure it, and where .there has been anything real- 

Secretary Baker. Oh, if there has been any fraud or misconduct, 
or anything of that kind. I have no kind of opinion. Senator, about 
the method. You and I have exactly the same object. What we 
want to do is to have the Government of the United States deal 
speedily and justly with the people that it has called into its service. 

Senator McKellar. I think we will deal a great deal more speedily 
by this other method, because it will mean a delay- 

Secretary Baker. I differ from you just as fundamentally as pos¬ 
sible on the question of speed. I think the machinery as proposed 
in the Hitchock bill will set up an entirely unfamiliar tribunal, and 
it will be hearing cases when you and I have retired from public life. 

Senator McKellar. That was not the case in the Spanish War. 

Secretary Baker. I do not know what happened then, but I sus¬ 
pect they are still litigating in the Court of Claims about it. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Have you any idea, Mr. Secretary, as to 
the amount of verbal contracts that have been made ? 

Secretary Baker. I have not. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Have you any idea of the contracts that 
have been refused by the comptroller and declared invalid by him ? 

Secretary Baker. I have not; Mr. Crowell has. 

Senator Johnson of California. Do you mean the number? 

Senator Frelinghuysen. No; the amount. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think it was $1,600,000,000 in 
amount. In number- 

Senator Frelinghuysen. I do not want the number; I want the 
amount. Does that include verbal contracts and contracts that have 
been made by subordinate officers and that have been declared in¬ 
valid ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not think there are any verbal 
contracts involved in it. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. I understand you have from time to time, 
as necessity demanded, given orders to industries for supplies with¬ 
out a formal contract, and by letter- 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Thomas. And by telegram? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And by telephone. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir, and by telephone. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


37 


Senator Frelinghuysen. I should like to know the amount of con¬ 
tracts that have to be validated. Is it a billion and a half or three 
billions ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is one billion six hundred millions 
and. odd dollars. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Then we have to deal with practically 
$1,600,000,000 of contracts that you need legislation to validate? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Now, how many contracts are there in 
the War Department? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Something over 6,000 of those were 
invalid contracts. There are between twenty and twenty-five thou¬ 
sand contracts of all kinds. 

Senator New. And only about 6,000 of them are included in this 
lot that were invalidated by the ruling of the comptroller? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Fletcher. So you would have to have a court which 
would have to inquire into 25,000 contracts? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Fletcher. It would take two or three years to do it, I 
suppose ? 

Senator New. That is just the point I want to make. Are the 
whole 25,000 contracts involved? 

Secretary Baker. Senator Hitchcocks bill commits to this board 
all formal and informal contracts. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. As to your informal contracts that have 
been declared invalid, you have been making an effort to settle those 
through your officers and various agencies of the War Department, 
have you not? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. We have concentrated on the valid 
contracts, provided we were able to do so. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. That is, you have settled no valid con¬ 
tracts as yet ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What is that agency in the War Department? 

Secretary Baker. It is a distributing agency, consisting of district 
boards scattered throughout the United States, who report their find¬ 
ings here to Washington for survey, and in the event of disputes or 
disagreements between the business men and the district board rep¬ 
resenting the Government, or if the board surveying it here finds 
it ought to be revised, it goes to the final board of adjustments here, 
which has been created, consisting of three men. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Are they Army officers ? 

Secretary Baker. They were civilians until they were made Army 
officers a few months ago. 

The Chairman. Commissioned for this purpose? 

Secretary Baker. Selected for this purpose. 

Senator Weeks. Assuming that there is some validity in the sug¬ 
gestion made by the chairman that these men are passing on their 
own acts, and you have machinery now in operation throughout the 
country doing this work, as far as you know satisfactorily, would 
it be practicable to continue that machinery and have a reviewing 
board here in Washington, men not connected with the military 
service, who have nothing to do with the making of those contracts ? 


38 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Secretary Baker. That is exactly what we have, Senator; that 
is to say, a final board of adjustment which lays down the rule and 
surveys the whole business is one which has no relation to the mak¬ 
ing of any contract. They were civilians and called in for this 
particular purpose. 

Senator Knox. To what extent are they passing on the contracts? 

Secretary Baker. What the chairman suggested a moment ago, 
Senator, is that those in the Ordnance Department w T ho make the 
contracts would be those w T ho would negotiate the settlement for the 
dissolution of the contracts. 

Senator Knox. They were not interested in the contracts; they 
were the mere instruments of the Government in making the con¬ 
tracts. 

Secretary Baker. Exactly. 

Senator Knox. I do not see anything in that. 

Secretary Baker. The report that Senator McKellar made was 
somewhat broader than that. If the condition exists such as he 
describes, clearly it is one that ought to be corrected no matter what 
the machinery is. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. As to these formal contracts, you are 
in agreement on practically all of them, are you not, with the con¬ 
tractors? You are proceeding to settle them? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; we are. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Then all the problem we have is 6,000 
informal contracts? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; the Hitchcock bill covers the 
formal contracts as well. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. A method is already provided in the 
contracts for their settlement. 

Aassistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. 

Secretary Baker. But a new agency would be created for apply¬ 
ing the method. 

Senator Sutherland. You are comprising, however, the formal 
contract just as you are the informal contract. You are reducing 
the amount to be paid? 

Secretary Baker. Yes, sir. 

Senator Knox. They will be put on exactly the same footing; the 
same machinery w T ould apply to all. 

Secretary Baker. I think so, Senator. 

Senator Sutherland. With respect to a board composed or mili¬ 
tary officers, would it not be the idea on the part of business men 
of the country with whom you had to deal in settlement of these 
contracts that those men were absolutely under the direction of the 
war machinery and might possibly not be as fair to them? 

Secretary Baker. I raised that question, Senator, when the board 
of adjustments was appointed. We had those three men all chosen 
from civil life—none of them has any tradition of the military 
establishment—I raised the question whether it would not be better 
to let them remain as civilians, so that the business men would not 
have the feeling, whatever the facts might be, that they were 
military men and arbitrary. 

Senator Sutherland. Or under control. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


39 


Secretary Baker. I was rather thinking of the fact that they might 
be arbitrary rather than controlled. I took the matter up with Mr. 
Max Thelan, of California, upon whose judgment I relied more 
than anything else—one of the most eminently qualified men in the 
country for this kind of proposition—and he finally convinced me 
that it would be better to make military men of them, because they 
could control all the sources of information through the department. 
But they are all civilians. 

Senator Sutherland. They have been until they were commis¬ 
sioned. 

Senator Fletcher. What is the condition in regard to the Dent 
bill? It was reported out of the committee with some amendments 
and was in the House. I do not know whether it has been acted upon 
or not. 

Secretary Baker. It has not been acted upon, but under the rule 
of the House it is ready for immediate action. 

Senator Sutherland. You spoke of not having any complaint of 
any unfairness in the method employed. I sent you yesterday a letter 
from a large concern in my State that operates in West Virginia 
and Ohio, to the effect that in making these settlements they have 
evidently some large outstanding contracts; they were directed to en¬ 
large their plant and went to a very large expense to do that, and it 
seems this claims commission was requiring them to first Settle with 
their subcontractors before they would undertake to make a settle¬ 
ment with them, and, of course, that settlement is entirely in the air— 
that is, the settlement which the department will make with these 
principal contractors, leaving it, of course, largely to the judgment 
of those men as to what they will get. But precedent to their final 
settlement they are required to make settlement and incur large 
additional expense to their subcontractors. 

Secretary Baker. I assume that what they must mean by that is 
that they are required to liquidate their relations—not actually them, 
but liquidate them—so that in dealing with them we will know what 
the contract relations are, what the principal contractor’s obligations 
are with his subordinates. 

Senator Sutherland. They seem to have the idea that these sub¬ 
contractors would be dealt with by the Government through this 
claims commission rather than by themselves. 

Secretary Baker. Doubtless if they prefer that we would under¬ 
take to help them with the subcontractors. 

Senator Frelingiiuysen. I have been in conference with a great 
many men, and took this matter up with the War Department. The 
New T York Chamber of Commerce, I believe, is very much interested 
in the bill to provide for the validating of these contracts and their 
proper settlement. Now, as one of them expressed himself to me the 
other day: “If Crowell was going to settle all these contracts, I 
would be perfectly willing to accept his decision, because he is a busi¬ 
ness man, and I feel I would get justice, but I am afraid that some 
subordinate officer of the War Department, some young fellow with 
a captain’s or a lieutenant’s commission, will be empowered to settle 
this contract, and he will be arbitrary and unjust, and there will be 
no proper board of review, and I will be compelled to take his find¬ 
ings, and find myself practically in bankruptcy by the time I get 
through.” 


40 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Secretary Baker. Well, any fear of that kind is very easy to be 
allayed, because nothing authorizes the department to compel an 
individual to take any settlement. What we can do is to negotiate 
a settlement, and if it is not satisfactory to the man he has the final 
right, of course, to appeal to the Secretary of War and ask that the 
matter be passed upon by him, as he has control of the matter and 
can adjust it. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. And your finding is final? 

Secretary Baker. No; my finding is not final. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Your original bill provides that your 
finding should be final and conclusive. 

Secretary Baker. Only final in the matter of settlement, but for 
the solace of the particular person, whose opinion I entirely share, 
who spoke to you. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. I think it is the general impression. 

Secretary Baker. The entire supervision of this matter is in Mr. 
Crowell’s hands, and he is proceeding every day, so your friend will 
have the court of appeal that he elects. 

Senator New. Of course, the element of time in this matter is as 
essential as anything else. 

Secretary Baker. It is most important. I am not at all sure that 
by great deliberation and long delay we might set up a thoroughly 
ideal piece of machinery to deal with this situation, but the business 
interests of this country must have speed, in order to get back to 
their respective industries. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. In the meantime, while you are perfect¬ 
ing that machinery these men would be broke. 

Secretary Baker. Exactly; that is my fear about it. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Would it not be well to let the War De¬ 
partment go on and settle these contracts, and then if we find there 
is a great amount of contracts unsettled of in dispute Congress can 
create a commission to settle those? 

Secretary Baker. I think that would be entirely feasible. 

Senator Sutherland. Have you the names of those who constitute 
this principal commission? 

Secretary Baker. I gave the names a few moments ago. They are 
all lieutenant colonels—Lieut. Col. Christopher B. Garnett, formerly 
chairman of the State commission of public utilities or corporations 
of the State of Virginia; Lieut. Col. Herbert B. Lehman, a member 
of the firm of Lehman Bros., bankers, New York; Lieut. Col. Ed¬ 
ward S. Malone, formerly assistant corporation counsel for the 
Borough of Queens, N. Y. 

Senator New. When was that board created ? 

Secretary Baker. It was shortly before the armistice was signed. 

Senator New. How had the claims been adjusted prior to that 
time? 

Secretary Baker. By the bureaus directly, and this was provided 
as a supervising machinery. 

Senator Knox. And the bureaus, while they had charge of this 
board after it was created, settled all claims with the contractors 
against the Government? 

Secretary Baker. Yes, sir. 

Senator Knox. And as to the millions of dollars of material that 
you bought, where there was settlement necessary or any of these 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 41 

differences of opinion which had to be adjusted, they were adjusted 
by this machinery? 

Secretary Baker. Yes, sir. 

Senator Johnson of California. Including the regional board? 

Secretary Baker. Yes; as a subordinate agency; and this board 
grew out of a board that I appointed, I think, way back in the middle 
of last summer. I wanted to have perfect certainty that the contracts 
of the department were being formally made and that the same policy 
was running through them, and I sent to California and got Mr. 
Max Thelan to come. He was an expert on that subject. He had 
been a member of the public utilities commission of the State of 
California. 

Senator Knox. That is to say, everybody who had a contract with 
the Government made it with the knowledge that if there was a dif¬ 
ference of opinion between them and the Government it was to be 
adjusted by this machinery? 

Secretary Baker. That is true. 

Senator McKellar. How did so many of the informal contracts 
arise? You say that possibly there were twenty-five or thirty 
thousand ? 

Secretary Baker. Oh, no; there are 6,000 of them. 

Senator McKellar. How was it possible that 6,000 of them arose ? 

Secretary Baker. Many of them are contracts that they waited to 
make definite by ascertaining the cost figures, and some of them are 
signed by the wrong person. A large number are signed by the 
wrong person. There are many informalities of many kinds. Of 
course, it was a very speedy proposition, Senator; everybody was just 
as busy as a bee and the writing out of the formal elaborate language 
of the contract and to get the bonds took time. 

Senator Sutherland. This does not take into account the con¬ 
tracts overseas? 

Secretary Baker. No; it does not take in the contracts overseas. 
They are numerous also. 

Senator New. A method has been provided for their adjustment, 
has it not? 

Secretary Baker. I understand that Senator Hitchcock had a sepa¬ 
rate measure covering that; am I right about that? 

Senator New. I think so. 

Senator Sutherland. It has not been put into effect as yet ? 

Secretary Baker. It has not been, but Mr. Stettinius, who returned 
from abroad a few days ago, was deeply concerned about it. He 
thought that for a million dollars we could settle all of the informal 
contracts abroad; but if we delayed it it would be very costly. 

Senator Sutherland. Is it not very essential that we should take 
steps with regard to those contracts immediately ? 

Secretary Baker. I think that has been done. 

Senator Kirby. We passed a bill upon that subject. 

Secretary Baker. If a bill—I hardly know what to call it—if the 
bill now pending in the House, which is the derivative of the bill 
originally drawn by the Comptroller of the Treasury, modified by 
various conferences—if that bill were accepted by this committee and 
passed, it would cover both sides of the question both abroad and 
here. 


42 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Frelinghuysen. Is it not absolutely necessary to settle 
this billion six hundred million dollars of contracts that have to be 
validated still? 

Secretary Baker. Oh, absolutely. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. You can not go on and settle those con¬ 
tracts until they are? 

Secretary Baker. No, sir. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. And it is consequently necessary that 
proper legislation be enacted to provide for the immediate settlement 
either by the War Department or by a commission? 

Secretary Baker. Well, I would suggest that if Congress is willing 
to validate these, that is, to cure their informalities, that is a proper 
way to deal with it. If Congress is willing to cure their informali¬ 
ties, we will have plenty of time to see whether the machinery of the 
War Department is working justly in the matter because instantly 
the process will be started and then if there comes complaint or 
doubt as to the equity or the speed of the thing, Congress could pro¬ 
vide new machinery. 

Senator Beckham. You recommend, then, the bill that has been in¬ 
troduced in the House as the one that embodies the ideas of the de¬ 
partment ? 

Secretary Baker. That embodies the idea of the comptroller and 
myself and Mr. Stettinius, and all of us who have been conferring 
about it. 

Senator Sutherland. Have you a copy of that bill? 

Secretary Baker. I have not a copy of it. 

Senator Fletcher. There is nothing unusual in giving the War 
Department authority to adjust differences. They have such au¬ 
thority to make the contract, and authority to modify and cancel. 
Why should they not have the authority to adjust them? There is 
nothing unusual in that? 

Secretary Baker. Oh no; that is a power we have with regard to 
all formal contracts. 

Senator Fletcher. The same as is given to the Navy in the naval 
bill? 

The Chairman. Do you desire to ask Mr. Crowell any further 
questions, or do you desire to make a further statement, Mr. Crowell ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Only that the process is now under 
way. I believe by the present means we can settle or substantially 
settle these outstanding contracts before the commission could get 
started on them. We propose to settle those by June. 

Senator Knox. I agree with the Secretary of War that if you cure 
the informalities that is about all that is necessary for us to do now, 
and then if you find difficulty either as to the attitude of this board 
toward the contractor, or for any other reason it calls for the crea¬ 
tion of a separate body to adjust them, or new authority be conferred 
upon the War Department, we can take it up when that contingency 
arises. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions to be asked Mr. 
Crowell ? If not, there are some gentlemen here and I presume they 
have been invited to make statements. 

(Secretary Baker and Assistant Secretary Crowell thereupon 
withdrew.) 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 43 

STATEMENT OF MR. JOSEPH H. DEFREES, OF CHICAGO. 

The Chairman. You may state your occupation. 

Mr. Defrees. My function here is member of the War Service 
Executive Committee of American Industries. A section of the 
committee is here and also a special committee appointed a few days 
ago in New York at the meeting of some 300 of the war-service 
chairmen of the various industries nationally organized for service 
in connection with the war. 

That meeting in New York was the result of a prior meeting of 
all the war-service committees of the American industries that have 
been organized at Atlantic City early in December, some four or five 
thousand individuals involved in this committee, but it should not 
be understood that they represent merely themselves. Each com¬ 
mittee represented that industry nationally organized, and the chair¬ 
men of the committee met in New York on last Friday and Satur¬ 
day, representing some 300 persons, representing the industry na¬ 
tionally organized, and they appointed a special committee here of 
gentlemen with regard to this matter of informal contracts. 

* The committee was appointed without knowledge as to how the 
gentlemen who were appointed were interested personally in the 
subject, but appointed more especially with regard to the repre¬ 
sentative character. I have learned by talking with them since 
that only one or two of them are especially affected. Their interest 
is as members of the American industry in the broad general ques¬ 
tion. The committee was only able to get here this morning, and 
perhaps it is not as well qualified to discuss the matter as it might 
be had it had a longer time to determine the composite of their 
ideas. 

The Chairman. Have you seen Senate bill 5261 ? 

Mr. Defrees. Oh, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And the Dent bill ? 

Mr. Defrees. Oh, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Those are the particular matters that we are con¬ 
sidering. 

Mr. Defrees. Yes; I quite understand that; but there are certain 
features—in fact, all the features that have been involved in the 
discussion that I have heard Secretary Barker discuss here—they 
have quite fixed opinions about. They feel sure it would be most un¬ 
fortunate if the matter of adjustment of these informal contracts 
were taken out of the War Department. They feel that it would 
resu lt—by reason of the unfamiliarity of the people who made the 
figures upon which the adjustment had to be recommended—in long 
delays and where speed is of the utmost consequence. They are 
informed that there is $1,600,000,000 involved in these informal con¬ 
tracts. A very large part of the liquid working capital of the 
industries of the country is involved in these contracts, and it is, in 
that sense, in the possession of the Government and not being used 
in industry. Bankers are becoming more or less nervous; there is 
pressure there. They feel that if there is much delay, that there 
may be, and certainly would, a great stoppage of revival of indus¬ 
try on the part of these various units in peace work, because they 


44 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


would not have the capital or they would not have the courage to 
proceed. They feel also that they would not be able to afford work 
to the laboring men and the soldiers who are returning as they would 
be if thej' made earlier adjustment. 

Concerning the cost which is involved—which I would judge from 
your questions you are all equally alive to—they are convinced it is 
important. They feel that neither the Dent bill nor the Hitchcock 
bill affords a completely satisfactory solution. They have had an 
opportunity to examine the bill which has been forwarded to the 
chairman of this committee and a similar committee of the House, 
and a formal bill by the War Industries Board—perhaps not acting 
officially, but it was transmitted by Mr. Baruch. It is broader in its 
provisions and practically effects what Senator Knox spoke of a few 
minutes ago, the validating of existing informal contracts and leaves 
with the War Department their adjustment. 

The Hitchcock bill, if you are to go into details, I think you would 
find is not sufficiently broad in its provisions to care for a numerous 
class of these contracts. It seems to me tremendously important that 
the language of any legislation validating the informal contract 
should be broad enough to give discretion to some board in the War* 
Department to do equity, because now they have these regional or¬ 
ganizations scattered all over the country. These contracts can not 
be settled by this top body which Secretary Baker spoke of, but there 
will be expedition accomplished, because in each region there is prac¬ 
tically a civilian board—it was a civilian board of gentlemen who 
were familiar with conditions—and they would be able at once to 
take up and make a report to the central body here, which would 
result in an adjustment. 

Senator McKellar. That is precisely what is required in the 
Hitchcock bill. What objection have you to the method provided 
for there ? 

Mr. Defrees. The objection is this: The Hitchcock bill gives the 
commission authority to divide the country into zones, one or more, 
and to create a commission in each district, but it is not related to 
the existing agencies which have familiarity or acquaintance with 
the work or acquaintance with the conditions which would bring 
about early adjustment. You must remember that the Government 
has kept in most of these plants that have had large Government con¬ 
tracts its own officers and kept track of costs. They know just what 
the situation is, and they know what it costs to contract to do this 
and that and the other thing. It has a vast quantity of material and 
capacity to make adjustments which no new agency could by any 
possibility have. 

Senator Sutherland. Would not that information be also avail¬ 
able to any other commission ? 

Mr. Defrees. It would be available to the other commission, but 
you can readily understand that the new commission has got to 
reeducate itself. With respect to this situation these new agencies 
have not an acquaintance with the individual contractors; they have 
not the vision and they do not know. 

Senator Sutherland. That would depend upon the personnel of 
the commission somewhat, would it not? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


45 


Senator McKellar. The present commission, as I understood the 
Secretary, was appointed about 60 days ago, and its work has been 
stopped by reason of not having valid contracts to operate on. 

Mr. Defrees. I do not know that it has been stopped. Is that 
•correct, that it has been stopped? 

Senator McKellar. Are they proceeding with these invalid con¬ 
tracts now ? 

Mr. Defrees. Oh, no; the valid contracts. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. They are working on the valid con¬ 
tracts now. 

Mr. Defrees. Here is another element that it seems to me you gen¬ 
tlemen would want to take into account: A contractor who, by rea¬ 
son of the exigencies of the war, has been induced through the direct 
order of some official of the War Department, or even of the War 
Industries Board, to go ahead and do things in the execution of his 
contract without waiting for a formal contract, and who has not 
yet got his formal contract, is, of course, entitled to the same sort 
of adjustment that he would have had if his formal contract had 
been executed. There is no reason why the man who happened to 
get his formal contract signed on the 10th of November should be 
in any better situation than the man who failed to get his contract— 
if the other man went ahead in good faith. 

Now, the War Department has worked out very carefully con¬ 
sidered provisions of settlement and adjustment which have been in¬ 
troduced into the formal contracts that have been made in the last 
several months. They are supposed to be just, both to the depart¬ 
ment and to the contractor, and they were made when the people 
were at arm’s length in so far as industry was at arm’s length during 
this war period; in other words, they were not forced into the con¬ 
tract. Now, it seems to me that every man who accepted one of those 
moral contracts is entitled to have it canceled upon the same basis 
and upon the same terms that he had a right to expect would be 
employed in the formal contract which would eventually come to 
him. 

Senator McKellar. There is no difference among the committee 
at all with respect to that. 

Mr. Defrees. I know there is not; or at least I understand there 
is not. How are you going to accomplish that? If you have one 
body, namely, the" body now in the War Department, settling the 
formal contracts and another body adjusting the informal contracts, 
what will be the result? 

Senator McKellar. That is just what the Hitchcock bill does not 
do. It provides that both of them- 

Mr. Defrees. I quite understand that, too; but I did not suppose 
that was intended. I knew it was broad enough to cover that. 

Senator McKellar. That was intended; yes, sir. 

Mr. Defrees. Then, it seems to me that the intention goes further 
than the business interests of the country see any real purpose in. 
It seems to me the adjustment ought to be made by the men who are 
familar with the contract with this top body, or supervising body, 
which has already been created. 

Senator McKellar. Do you understand that these are men who are 
not familiar with it at all, as Secretary Baker has just pointed out 


46 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


awhile ago; that they were selected about 60 days ago for the purpose 
of having an outside body that was wholly unfamiliary with it ? 

Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir. I did not make myself clear. It is true 
that this supervisory body, I understand from Mr. Baker, and I have 
always understood, is a comparatively new body; it is judicial in a 
large sense, but there are agencies through the zones. I know the 
agency appointed in Chicago is splendidly representative of business 
and finance and of the government. For instance, Mr. John Mitchell, 
who is president of the Illinois Trust & Savings Bank there, and 
whose name stands for as much as anybody’s, has been introduced 
into the committee there to operate with Mr. Bussell, who has been 
regional director in times gone by of the Ordnance Department, and 
another gentleman whose name escapes me for the moment. There 
are two others, I think, there. Those men are busying themselves and 
are having the benefit of Mr. Mitchell’s judgment, who has not had 
the benefit of this detail, in bringing about an adjustment of the 
formal contracts—is not that true? 

Assistant Secretary Croavell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Defrees. Now there is a vast deal of experience and knowledge 
which not only the Government is entitled to but the industries of 
the country are entitled to in accomplishing these adjustments. It is 
fair enough that the supervising body should not be influenced one 
way or another, but should be a judicial body. That is accomplished 
by the War Department’s plan and it is also accomplished by the 
Hitchcock bill, but under the War Department’s plan these zone 
boards make investigation and make tentative adjustments and send 
on their reports to this central body, and it is all subject to their 
approval. That is all fair enough, but it means speedy action. 

Now, the Hitchcock bill, it seems to me, if we go into that, is not 
broad enough to cover very many cases that exist. I could ask some 
of the gentlement here on this committee to speak of cases of which 
they are advised, that would show that that is true. For instance, in 
the first section of the Hitchcock bill it only attempts to validate, 
and it is a left-handed validation, Senator, is it not? The orders and 
contracts made would be sanctioned by an officer legally qualified and 
authorized to give a formal contract. It only validates such contracts. 
as have not yet proceeded to actual execution, but they must have 
been brought about through the order or direction of an officer whose 
legal authority was such that if his name had been signed to a con¬ 
tract it would have been a valid contract. For instance, you will 
remember the language—I can read it to you if you desire me- 

Senator Kirby. It is not necessary; the committee understands 
that. 

Mr. Defrees. I suppose so. Then, again, you provide that in such 
instances, instead of adjusting the contract with regard to the prices 
which were agreed upon you adjust them with regard to fair value; 
in other words, you put upon this board the whole burden which has 
already been accomplished by various agencies of the War Depart¬ 
ment, which included the War Industries Board in a sense—the 
remaking of contracts. You do not fix as a measure, wherever it is 
applicable, the prices which the contract contemplated; but, now that 
this gentleman has gone ahead upon the faith of the prices, you have 
provided legislation which will require that to be subject to review. 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


47 


You have given your committee, if you allow it to pass in that 
shape, a job that they will be at when their grandchildren will be 
old men, if they should live that long, because they have to qualify 
themselves to ascertain a fair price in each instance. It is not fair 
that a man who got his contract on the 11th day of November, 
signed, should have one basis of adjustment and a man who didn’t 
happen to get it signed should have another basis of adjustment and 
have the question of the fairness of the price subject to review in that 
fashion. It seems to me you could protect the Government, if any 
contract had been fraudulently made, by inserting a provision to 
apply to contracts where there was fraud. But where a contract has 
been made without fraud and the price is agreed upon it fails to be 
efficient merely because the proper officer may not have signed it. For 
instance, there is one contract which we are advised of now where the 
contract should have been signed by Gen. MacRoberts. The contract 
was entirely formal in language, it is all covered, but Col. Watson, 
who was operating with Gen. McRoberts, I understand, signed Gen. 
McRoberts’s name to that contract, and under the ruling of the 
comptroller that is held to be an invalid contract. 

Now, under the Hitchcock bill, if I understand it correctly, that 
contract would be validated, possibly; but even if it is, then the duty 
of your board is to ascertain whether or not the prices agreed upon 
in that contract are the prices which the Government should pay. 

Senator McKellar. It is only in case of cancellation ? 

Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. The language of the first section is as follows: 

The fact that any such contract or order or agreement has not been made 
in the form or signed in the manner required by law shall not invalidate, the 
same if it was entered into in good faith and lacked only the sanction of a 
contract in legal form. 

Now, the McRoberts case, which you cite, would be absolutely 
validated, and if there was an agreement as to price it would be 
absolutely carried out. It is only in cases of cancellation that the 
committee would take into consideration the rights and equities of 
the parties, just as any committee would do, no matter what com¬ 
mittee it is. 

Mr. Defrees. But we are presupposing that all these contracts 
either have been or should be canceled, are we not? That is all we 
are talking about, as I understand it ? They are all going to be can¬ 
celed; none of them is going to be carried to completion except as 
they are already completed, as I understand. Therefore, section 1 
and section 2 apply, and in section 2 you say— 

That in all cases as above included it shall be lawful to make payments 
under the terms of the agreements or orders so made or given to the extent 
that performance thereof has been made or supplies thereunder have heretofore 
been received and accepted by the United States, provided that payment in such 
cases shall not exceed the fair value of the supplies or materials delivered to 
and accepted by the United States. 

You say in section 1— 

Nothing herein provided, however, shall be held to validate any contract, 
order, or agreement given or made by an officer or agent of the War Depart¬ 
ment not legally authorized or qualified to give a formal legal contract, nor to 
permit an officer to make such contract with any company, corporation, or firm 
in which he has, or had, at the time, directly or indirectly any interest. 


48 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

I do not see how the instance where Col. Watson signed the contract 
would be valid under that, but let us suppose it was. Then we come 
to section 2, and section 2 says— 

Sec. 2. That in all cases as above included it shall be lawful to make pay¬ 
ments under the terms of the agreements or orders so made or given to the 
extent that performance thereof has been made or supplies thereunder have 
heretofore been received and accepted by the United States, provided that pay¬ 
ment in such cases shall not exceed the fair value of the supplies or materials 
delivered to and accepted by the United States. 

Now, I submit that the contract price would have nothing to do 
with it under those circumstances, but again there would be the 
question of the ascertainment of fair value, and you have given your 
committee more to do than it will get through with while we are 
alive, if it exercises the function given to it by that provision. 

Then again, it only covers orders or contracts. Now, there are 
agreements, many of them depending upon requests; many times 
there are letters where they have gone ahead and done things and 
spent thousands of dollars. Then again great plants have been con¬ 
structed based upon the understanding that there should be adjust¬ 
ment made in respect to it. The War Industries Board has brought 
about many things, acting as sympathetic agencies with the War 
Department, where it has made the statement that the contractors 
would be protected. I have been present at a great many. I have 
been down here a great deal during the last two or three years, and I 
have been present a great many times at interviews with section 
heads of the War Industries Board, and there has not been a time 
when the committee representing the industry—the war service com¬ 
mittees—have not acceded always to whatever the section head deter¬ 
mined after conference, should be done by the industry in respect 
to changing classes of operations in respect to broadening that class 
of operation in respect to restrictions, and taking on obligations with 
the expenditure of money without waiting for the formal contract, 
and they are not provided for here. 

This bill should also cover agreements and requests connected with 
the prosecution of the war, including the acquisition of real estate, 
the acquisition or use of facilities, furnishing supplies, materials, or 
equipments. Nothing is covered in that respect except as to a direct 
contract for supplies of materials. There are a great many instances 
which are not covered. It seems to me the Government’s obligation is 
just as broad as its requests upon these people, and while there ought 
to be the greatest pains taken not to permit advantage to be taken of 
the Government, and that, of course, is to be expected, there should be 
a power some place broad enough to settle equities, and the legislation 
should not be so rigid as to leave no such discretion in the body that 
has the duty or responsibility of making the adjustment. 

Senator McKellar. What would you suggest in section 2 to make 
it right? What is your view as to that? 

Mr. Defrees. I am not in favor of the bill at all, but I can suggest 
things which I think would make it do possibly. I would add this: 

Such price as may be provided by the order, contract, or agreement shall be 
deemed to be the fair value in all cases where its application may be practicable 
and equitable. 

Senator McKellar. That is in addition to section 2 ? 

Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


49 


t j ena ^. 0r k- NOX * Are y° u in favor of the proposed bill of the War 
Industries Board; does that cover your ideas ? 

Mr. Defrees. I think it does absolutely, with the addition of one or 
two words, and I can give you those words. 

Senator Knox. Has the committee ever been furnished with copies 
of that bill ? 

Mr. Defrees. I have them here; I can furnish them to you. 

Senator Knox. It seems to me a very simple and direct act. 

Mr. Defrees. It is absolutely efficient, Senator, and nothing else 
that has been offered, in my judgment, covers the situation. 

Senator Beckham. You do not mean the House bill, do you? 

Mr. Defrees. No, sir; I do not, and I am not prepared to discuss 
it in detail. Here is a copy of the War Industries bill. There are 
certain small amendments in it which I think ought to be made, and 
to which I can call your attention. 

Senator Kirby. Was the War Industries Board’s bill that is sug¬ 
gested here drafted after consultation with the same agencies that 
drafted the bill that has been furnished to Mr. Dent in the House, and 
that was originally furnished here, or do you know ? 

Mr. Defrees. Well, I do not know; I expect it was. 

Senator Kirby. The department has had this matter under con¬ 
sideration ; they have asked us for relief. They have asked it in the 
particular form of the bill presented to Mr. Dent’s committee in the 
House and the one brought here. The Senate committee has intro¬ 
duced another bill that has been recommended. Now, has this board 
that proposed this bill been in consultation with the same agencies 
that drafted the other bill? 

Mr. Defrees. I think those agencies are entirely familiar with the 
War Industries bill, and I believe—they are here to speak for them¬ 
selves—that I am justified in saying that they regard the bill as suffi- 
> ciently broad to cover the principles that they think should obtain. 

Senator I£irby. Then, do they further regard the bill as sufficiently 
limited to reasonably protect the Government, as the other might 
have been ? 

Mr. Defrees. I think they do; but the gentlemen are here and can 
speak for themselves. 

Senator Kirby. That is what I was driving at. It seems to me 
there ought to have been some sort of concerted action between these 
two agencies of the Government in their recommendations here. 

Mr. Defrees. I can tell you very well what little I know about it. 
I know that the Chamber of Commerce of the United States was 
very much concerned about this situation and was not satisfied with 
the bill which came doAvn here and which is known as the Dent bill. 
Representatives of the chamber talked with various gentlemen of 
the War Industries Board and men in the War Department about 
what they regarded should be covered. Those gentlemen talked 
back and the principles governing this War Industries Board bill 
are the same as that; and then it came down through transmittal by 
Mr. Baruch, and We got copies of it and studied it and conferred 
with the gentlemen who are responsible for it. We are advised— 
not technically, not officially—that those in the War Department who 
had to do with this thing feel that the bill is a proper bill and will 
cover the situation, and the War Industries Board people feel that 
is what ought to be done. 


99137—19-4 



50 


LAND FOE ABTTLLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


The Chairman. Let me ask you a question. There are a number 
of people in the West who have been interested in the development 
of chrome potash and other minerals. 

Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And based on the invitations of the Government 
at least, and possibly on representations of authorized agents of 
the Government, they have gone ahead and at considerable expense 
have developed chrome fields and potash fields and other places of 
production. Now, all of those commodities have gone down prac¬ 
tically to nothing and they have them on hand. Is this bill of yours 
broad enough to protect that kind of people ? 

Mr. Defrees. I would not want to answer that question without 
having it definitely in mind. I should think it would depend upon 
the form in which the request or engagement was made from the 
Government. If they were merely stimulated as to the importance 
of the industry, that would be one thing; if they were requested 
directly by proper Government agency to go ahead and make the 
expenditure to produce these materials, then it would come within 
the provisions of the bill. 

The Chairman. It was for the stimulation of the production of 
the minerals—to stimulate them to go out into those fields and de¬ 
velop them. 

Mr. Defrees. There are a good many cases of that kind, I suppose, 
but I imagine they would not be covered by this bill. 

Senator Hitchcock. I would like to ask you a question. You seem 
to say in the first place that the language of section 1 is not broad 
enough to cover the case in which a manufacturer had proceeded upon 
an informal order from the Government. Now, the language not only 
includes contracts, but it includes orders- 

Mr. Defrees. Yes. 

Senator Hitchcock. What could be more general in its terms than 
that word “ orders ” ? 

Mr. Defrees. I did not make myself clear, Senator; section 1 in 
a left-handed way—I want to still say that, because if the bill is to 
be considered probably I would like to talk further about it—it 
says that it shall not invalidate certain classes of contracts; that is, 
orders or agreements which are invalid merely because they have 
not been properly executed, but it says— 

Nothing herein provided, however, shall be held to validate any contract, 
order, or agreement given or made by an officer or agent of the War Depart¬ 
ment not legally qualified or authorized ta give a formal legal contract. 

Now, a great many of these engagements, for instance, I under¬ 
stand that under the ruling of the comptroller in the instance of 
Col. Watson, who signed the contract, he was not authorized tech¬ 
nically to make that contract but he was the officer of the Govern¬ 
ment who was actually functioning in bringing about such contracts. 

Senator Hitchcock. Now, that is not the point I am making. I 
understood you to say that this phraseology here was not sufficient 
to cover the case where a manufacturer had proceeded simply upon 
verbal request or order from the Government. 

Mr. Defrees. No; I think it would. 

Senator Hitchcock. You think it would? 

Mr. Defrees. Let me finish my sentence, please—if it refers to 
materials or supplies. 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


51 


Senator Hitchcock. Yes. 

Mr. Defrees. It is limited to that. 

Senator Hitchcock. That is what w T e want to limit it to. 

Mr. Defrees. Well, do you? , 

Senator Hitchcock. Yes. We do not want to bring real estate into 
this; there is no emergency with regard to real estate. Now, there 
is an emergency with regard to contractors who have gone on and 
had to manufacture and acquire materials and have changed their 
plants. That we want to cure. This is emergency legislation to 
cure the matter of supplies. The matter of real estate is an entirely 
separate matter which we want to take up in a totally separate way, 
and it should not be mixed up with supplies, in our opinion. 

Mr. Defrees. I had the idea that it was putting the War Depart¬ 
ment and tliereb}^ the Government of the United States in a moral 
position with respect to its responsibilities. A man who has spent 
millions of dollars based upon contracts, and a large part of the 
sum being borrowed on informal contracts by the Government, may 
be broke long before you get this long-term legislation that we are 
discussing. 

Senator Hitchcock. We feel that the acquisition of real estate, 
which the department has undertaken through condemnation pro¬ 
ceedings and in various other ways, can be treated separately. We 
want this legislation to protect manufacturers who have been 
manufacturing supplies for the Government, and I still am of the 
opinion that the language of section 1 is broad enough to cover all 
cases in which, whether there has been a formal contract or a verbal 
contract, we would like to have you point out wherein the deficiency 
is that you seem to adhere to. 

Mr. Defrees. In the first place it only covers orders or contracts, if 
it is to be construed literally. Now, there are a great many instances 
of requests—a letter requesting a man to do this or that, and action 
being taken on it, it makes an implied contract. The language 
“ orders or contracts ” ought to be broadened even to cover your idea, 
in my judgment. It ought to be orders, contracts, or agreements, ex¬ 
press or implied, and those that have been for supplies. 

Senator Hitchcock. If I should call up on the telephone my 
grocer and ask him to send up a pound of sugar, is not that an 
order for the sugar? 

Mr. Defrees. It is an order for the sugar if he accepts it; yes. 

Senator Hitchcock. We cover that by the use of the word “ order.” 

Mr. Defrees. Yes; it may be; but to follow up the answer to your 
question, if you look at the last end of the section you will see it 
only validates contracts. It says “nothing herein provided, how¬ 
ever, shall be held to validate any contract, order, or agreement given 
or made by an officer or agent of the War Department not legally 
qualified or authorized to give a formal legal contract.” 

Senator Hitchcock. I will say that the criticism is justified, and 
with the representative of the National Chamber of Commerce yes¬ 
terday I agreed, as far as I was concerned, to accept the language 
providing that where a superior officer had directed an inferior 
officer to sign a contract in his name, that that should be an accept¬ 
ance. and that amendment will be offered on the floor of the Senate. 

Mr. Defrees. Of course, that phrase ought to go out, if it is to 
cover what you are talking about. 


52 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Hitci-icock. No; we think it ought to stay in. 

Senator Knox. Ought not the test of that to be whether the Gov¬ 
ernment got the benefit of it? That would be the test of liability. 

Senator Hitchcock. In many cases the Government has received 
no benefit at all from these things.’ Expenses have been incurred, 
and the Government has received nothing. You can not make that 
the test. 

The Chairman. You were speaking of land. There is nothing in 
the proposal of this gentleman with reference to land. It provides, 
In the first section, third paragraph: 

And whenever, prior said November 12, 1918, the War Department, 
through its officers or agents, has taken possession of any land, or whenever 
the owner or holder of any land has made preparations at the request of the 
War Department, its officers, or agents, to turn over the same to the War 
Department, and no valid contract has been made with respect thereto, then 
the Secretary of War, if he finds that the public interest does not require the 
possession or occupancy of such land by the Government, is authorized to 
make compensation. 

Not for the land itself, but for the use. Do you see any objection 
to that? 

Senator Hitchcock. I think something of that sort ought to be 
done, but not in this bill, because that would cover the case of these 
camps, these rifle ranges. I do not think we ought to mix the two 
propositions. I think we should confine it here to an emergency bill 
to pay these men their money within a year, or 75 per cent of it, 
and not involve it in a mixture with real estate considerations. 

The Chairman. Take the Georgia case, for instance, where the 
Government may conclude to turn back that Benning project. In 
that event they would want power to compensate these men for the 
use of the land. That is all this does. 

Senator Hitchcock. I think the committee ought to investigate 
these cases and pass on them. This is an emergency matter. We 
have a couple of billions of dollars of contracts that are an emergency, 
and the sooner we get rid of them and compromise them the better. 
We ought to create this one tribunal for that purpose. 

The Chairman. The committee will now take a recess until 2 
o’clock. 

(Accordingly the committee took a recess until 2 o’clock p. m.) 

AFTER RECESS. 

The committee reassembled at the expiration of the recess, at 2.15 
o’clock p. m., Senator George E. Chamberlain (chairman), presiding. 

The Chairman. Gentlemen, we will proceed. Judge Defrees, you 
were still testifying when we took the recess. 

STATEMENT OE MR. JOSEPH H. DEFREES—Resumed. 

Mr. Defrees. I was discussing this bill. 

The Chairman. Now, you had in your hand, at the time you were 
making your statement here, a printed form of bill, but I understand 
that these gentlemen who made contracts with the Government are 
just as well satisfied, or possibly better satisfied with the bill which 
w r as prepared by the War Industries Board. 


'LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


53 


Mr. Defrees. Both were prepared by the War Industries Board, 
and the difference is that this typewritten one here, of which I have 
copies, has additional words in it which make it more certain that it 
will cover the various classes of informal contracts. I had expected 
to call attention to that, and that if it met with the approval of the 
committee we would send it to them with those changes in. 

The Chairman. We do not want any confusion about the two bills. 

Senator Beckham. The typewritten bill is not exactly similar to 
this small one which I have in my hand. 

Mr. Defrees. The second one is an improved and amended form 
of the printed bill. I have several copies with me. 

The Chairman. We will have it printed. 

Mr. Defrees. The differences are not many. 

The Chairman. Do you know how many contracts are involved 
under this bill—how much money ? 

Mr. Defrees. I only know from statements made to us by re¬ 
sponsible people in the War Industries Board. We have not under¬ 
taken to find from the industries a list of all of the contracts. 

The Chairman. Do you know the organizations- 

Mr. Defrees. I understand the amount is $1,600,000,000. 

The Chairman. Do you know the form of the organization which 
it is contemplated by the War Department shall adjust these matters? 

Mr. Defrees. Yes. 

The Chairman. Could you describe it to the committee ? 

Mr. Defrees. I could describe it broadly and generally; yes. 

The Chairman. Please do so. 

Mr. Defrees. The War Department already had the United States 
divided into zones in which it had officers functioning for the execu¬ 
tion of contracts. They had in the plants of most of the large con¬ 
tractors their own cost accounting officers and supervisors, and rela¬ 
tions to them, and in each of these zones there was a production 
officer that was assigned to them. As I understand the War Depart¬ 
ment’s plan, they have this overhead body which they have created, 
which is not related to the Contract Board, which Secretary Baker 
described, but under them they are using in each of these zones these 
production officers and a civilian of high character who has not been 
connected with the matter at all, like John J. Mitchell, of Chicago, 
who is president of one of the banks there. He had nothing to do 
with it until the settlements commenced to be made, and a representa¬ 
tive of the public otherwise, whose name, in this particular instance, 
I have forgotten, and another officer of the Government who had to 
do with production. 

The Chairman. That is four in each zone? 

Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir; four and sometimes five. Those men have 1 
a familiarity with respect to the conditions of each contract, formal 
and informal. Those gentlemen have no authority to make con¬ 
tracts. They were production people. It is the procurement divi¬ 
sion of the War Department that made the contracts, and after a 
contract was made, either informal or formal, advices with respect 
to it went to each zone, which had to do with seeing that the contract 
was accomplished in accordance with the terms of the contract and’ 
that the production was made in time. They put representatives in, 
each of the plants of the large contractors. 


54 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Now, those people are settling and adjusting all formal contracts, 
most of which have in them cancellation clauses—I have copies of 
them here—which had provisions providing for the terms of cancel¬ 
lation, and they are settling those contracts consistently with those 
terms. 

Now, my understanding is that in the informal contracts, where 
they are validated or ought to be validated, that these same f unctions 
will be used, but that it is all subject to the approval of this super¬ 
visory board or body. That is my understanding. 

The Chairman. That is, in Washington? 

Mr. Defrees. That is in Washington. 

The Chairman. And they are men who have not been connected 
either with the procurement of the goods or the execution of the con¬ 
tracts? 

Mr. Defrees. Neither one. 

The Chairman. They are civilians, I think the Secretary of War 
has stated, who have been commissioned in the Army. 

Mr. Defrees. I do not know any of them. I did not know any 
of them until to-day. 

The Chairman. Could you tell who they are? 

Mr. Defrees. I think Mr. Crowell could. 

The Chairman. Could you tell us, Mr. Crowell ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. You mean the personnel of the ad¬ 
justment board? 

The Chairman. The adjustment board here. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Lieut. Col. Garnett, Lieut. Col. Leh¬ 
mann, and Lieut. Col. Malone. 

The Chairman. These gentlemen were just recently commissioned 
in the Army? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think just recently. 

The Chairman. Why was it necessary to commission them? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not know. The Secretary went 
into that. 

The Chairman. He did not say why? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; he stated to some extent. 

Senator Fletcher. What is the difference between the bill you are 
now advocating and the Dent bill as it is reported to the House ? 

Mr. Defrees. I have not read the Dent bill for some time, and I 
would hesitate to speak of it offhand. All that remains in my mind 
is that it was not broad enough to accomplish the proper results. 

Senator Fletcher. It was amended after it was introduced— 
amended in the committee—and I suppose in accordance with the 
recommendation of the department, and perhaps of your organiza¬ 
tion. I do not know, of course, about that. 

The Chairman. The Dent bill, Mr. Crowell, was prepared by the 
War Industries Board, was it not? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, Mr. Chairman; the Dent bill 
was prepared by the members of the House Committee on Military 
Affairs, and it differs from, the bill now under discussion in a number 
of ways. The Dent bill as it stands to-day is not ample and does 
not cover all the cases. Another large difference is that it provides 
that all of these contracts after settlement, but before payment, shall 
be posted in Congress for 10 days before payment is made. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 55 

Senator Beckham. Do you prefer, Mr. Crowell, this bill that has 
been prepared by Mr. Baruch over the so-called Dent bill ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. This bill as it now stands is not ac¬ 
ceptable to the War Department, because it does not include foreign 
Governments, but if the words “and foreign Governments” are 
added after the word “corporation” this bill would be acceptable. 

Senator Beckham. What do you mean by “ this bill ”? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The War Industries Board bill. 

The Chairman. The one we are now discussing? 

Senator Beckham. That is your objection to it—that it does not 
cover foreign Governments? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. It does not cover the case of our 
contracts with foreign Governments. 

The Chairman. That is, the Dent bill or this bill does not cover 
foreign Governments ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; the Dent bill does cover for¬ 
eign Governments. 

Senator Beckham. With that provision in you would prefer it to 
the Dent bill? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The War Department thinks either 
bill would be acceptable. 

Senator Fletcher. You mean the Dent bill as amended? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The Dent bill as amended and this 
bill as amended so as to cover foreign Governments. 

The Chairman. Could you insert in there, Judge Defrees, the 
language which would make it broad enough to cover these foreign 
Governments ? 

Mr. Defrees. I could in a little time. I would not want to do it at 
the moment. I could step outside and return it to you in a moment. 

The Chairman. I should like to have that amendment made. 

Mr. Defrees. I would suggest, if it is not inconsistent with the 
emergency, that we ask the cooperation of Mr. Stettinius and Mr. 
Cutcheon in respect to just what that language should be, because 
they have both been abroad and have just come back here and have 
given this thing intense study. I should like to telephone to Mr. 
Cutcheon and have him here. 

The Chairman. If you will take that up this afternoon and let us 
have it to-morrow or the next day, that will be satisfactory. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I would state what they would sug¬ 
gest. I know T what they have in mind. With the three words added 
the bill is acceptable to them. 

The Chairman. What three words? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. In the third line, where the word 
“ corporation ” occurs, we should like to add the words “ and foreign 
Governments.” 

Mr. Defrees. If I might be excused just a moment, some of my as¬ 
sociates on the committee thought that perhaps I had not made it 
clear to your committee how broadly representative our committee 
is in indorsing this so-called War Industries Board bill, and also in 
impressing upon you our representation does not include merely 
contractors who are affected, but it includes practically the entire 
industry of the United States, in that at Atlantic City there were 
over 400 industries represented by war-service committees who had 


56 


LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


been authorized to represent those industries, nationally organized. 
The resolutions they passed there on this subject are covered by the 
War Industries Board bill. In New York last Friday and Saturday 
over 300 of the chairmen of those war-service committees were there. 
The whole 400 did not get there, but the matter was discussed by 
those chairmen as to what action should be taken, and a formal mo¬ 
tion was passed after discussion indorsing this bill by those gentle¬ 
men, and this committee was appointed for the purpose of urging 
upon you the passage of this bill, in order to enable the Govern¬ 
ment to carry out fully and broadly its moral obligations, thus 
enabling the people who were educated with respect to the Govern¬ 
ment’s obligations to function in respect to that. 

Our committee was much impressed by a statement of one of the 
Senators here a while ago, that the thing to do is to validate these 
contracts. You can later, if you see fit, change the existing ma¬ 
chinery in the War Department. There is to-day existing machinery 
in the War Department which can go ahead immediately, and it is 
the same machinery which must go ahead unless you stop it with 
respect to the contracts formally made. It is highly important that 
these contracts should be validated and that the Government should 
not use narrow language, because the financial interests involved are 
so great that serious results may occur unless the power of the board 
which is to deal with these matters is sufficiently broad to enable 
them to carry out these matters as they should be carried out. 

Those are the principles which are involved in this War Industries 
Board bill. 

The Chairman. Take an industry, for instance, that has made one 
of these contracts without authority of law, and it has gone ahead 
and produced the commodity just as though they had a valid con¬ 
tract. That may have taken all of their money and exhausted their 
credit. Would the validation of these contracts strengthen their 
credit with the banking institutions? 

Mr. Defrees. It would, indeed. It would settle the question. The 
banking institutions would wait then. 

The Chairman. That is, if they knew these contracts were vali¬ 
dated ? 

Mr. Defrees. Even if they were validated and they had a chance 
for adjustment. Of course you can not adjust the contracts by 
your bill, because still the board or body that had power must operate, 
but at the same time the banks would wait. 

The Chairman. In other words, it would strengthen these indus¬ 
trial firms? 

Mr. Defrees. Yes; they would go ahead with confidence, because 
they would know that there is a place where their rights can be 
settled and ascertained speedily. That is the great question that 
confronts us. 

Senator Beckham. Is that all the War Industries Board bill 
undertakes to do—to validate these informal contracts? 

Mr. Defrees. That is practically all that it does. 

The Chairman. It provides a method of adjustment. 

Mr. Defrees. No; it provides that the Secretary of War shall ad¬ 
just them; that is what it does. 

Senator McKellar. It does not add to his authority with refer¬ 
ence to them. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 57 

Mr. Defrees. I does not give him any greater authority than he 
would have if they had proceeded to formal contracts. If this 
board acts, it will consider these contracts just as though they were 
formal contracts. 

The Chairman. We had a conference with the Secretary, and he 
said that the functionaries that are going to adjust these matters 
are the same ones he had established already. 

Senator McKellar. What is your attitude on the War Industries 
Board plan, the little pamphlet bill- 

The Chairman. That is not the one we are talking about. The 
one we are discussing—the War Industries Board bill—is the type¬ 
written one. 

Senator McKellar. Yes; but what is your attitude on that? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I have seen only the printed bill. I 
have not seen the typewritten bill. 

Mr. Defrees. I can call your attention, in two minutes, to the 
differences. There is the printed bill [handing bill to Assistant 
Secretary Crowell], and if you will look at the lead pencil marks 
on it, you will see just what changes there are. 

The Chairman. They are very few? 

Mr. Defrees. They are very few. They do not change the purport 
of the bill. They were used—these words that make the changes— 
because some thought they were necessary to make more certain the 
spirit of the bill. Lawyers, I notice, like to use the same word two 
or three times. 

The Chairman. I have noticed that. 

Senator Fletcher. Yes; sometimes there are 12 men on a jury, 
and they have to say a thing 12 times in order to get it before the 
full jury. 

Mr. Defrees. For instance, they have added the words “order” 
and “ request.” Some gentlemen wanted “ order ” in there. I do 
not see that it makes any difference, myself. I consider a request 
the same as an order. 

The Chairman. Are there any others of your committee that de¬ 
sire to discuss the matter ? 

Mr. Defrees. No, sir; and we are very much obliged to you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, do you desire to make any further 
statement ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I am able to answer the question 
Senator McKellar just asked. Of the two bills, this bill is accept¬ 
able to the War Department, provided the same change is made, 
which will include foreign governments. 

The Chairman. That has been inserted in the copy which I have. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. 

The Chairman. Could you not, if it has not already been done— 
it may have been done in my absence—further enlighten the com¬ 
mittee as to the functionaries" that are to adjust these differences in 
the different zones, as well as the board created here? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Senator, we have 32 boards now 
functioning on this thing. Our idea was to decentralize it, so as to 

f et speedy action and so as to get the men best in touch and who have 
een closest in touch with the production under these contracts. The 
Ordnance Department has 12 boards, and those are headed in each 


58 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


case by the district ordnance officer, who is in every case a man of 
large experience, a civilian who has been expediting and watching 
production in his center for a considerable period of time past. He 
has made up boards, which have been approved in Washington, of 
four or five members each. They are largely officers of the Ordnance 
Department, but each board has an average of one civilian from the 
outside. In some cases he is a prominent attorney, and in some cases 
he is a member of the War Industries Board, in some cases repre¬ 
senting the War Industries Board in that particular district. The 
orders relating to the quartermaster supplies are being handled in 
the same way by 12 boards, which are functioning now in the 12 
zones into which the Quartermaster Department has divided the 
country. There are, then, eight boards functioning in Washington, 
each on some specialty, such as chemical warfare service or aircraft, 
so that we have 32 of these boards now functioning. 

The Chairman. As these several boards in these zones make their 
ascertainment, no payment is made until the adjustment board here 
has passed on the matter? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; if they come to an agreement 
with the contractor, it is then forwarded to Washington for final 
action. If they do not come to an agreement, the whole matter goes 
to the adjustment board, of three members, which we have described. 

The Chairman. Does this adjustment board have any supervisory 
power over the zone boards? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; we hold that ourselves. This 
adjustment board acts only when there has been a disagreement. 

The Chairman. So that the ascertainment of the local boards is 
final where they agree? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; it is referred to Washington. 
We then approve or disapprove their findings. 

The Chairman. Whom do you mean by “ we ”? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I mean the Division of Purchase; 
Storage and Traffic. 

Senator Fletcher. Does it finally come to the Secretary of War? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. The adjustment board "acts for the 
Secretary. 

Senator Fletcher. I mean where there is an agreement between 
the contractor and the board. Is that sent up here, then, to the 
Secretary of War? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No ; I act finally on it. 

Senator Beckham. Suppose there is a case of collusion between 
the contractor and the local board, what protection is there to the 
Government? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. There is the protection that the 
whole matter, before it is carried out, must be approved by the Divi¬ 
sion of Purchase, Storage and Traffic here in Washington. 

Senator McKellar. Who would do that approving here? You 
say it is a division. Of course, a division could not approve ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Gen. Goethals is the head of it. 

Senator McKellar. Gen. Goethals is the head of it, I know; but 
he would not do it personally, would he? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; in some cases. 

The Chairman. Mr. Crowell, you have read the Hitchcock bill, 
have you not? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


59 


The Chairman. Relatively under which one could these adjust¬ 
ments be made the more quickly? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Under the War Industries Board 
bill. 

The Chairman. You do not approve of the Hitchcock bill? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You think the process would be too slow? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long would it take to create an organization 
under the Hitchcock bill, such as you have, or perform the same 
functions you are now having performed under the boards you have 
created ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can best answer that by giving 
my opinion, which is under our present organization we will com¬ 
plete this by the 1st of July. I doubt if the Hitchcock board could 
be functioning by the 1st of July. 

The Chairman. You think it is quite essential that these matters 
should be adjusted as soon as possible? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think it is one of the most vital 
matters before the country to-day. I think the entire labor ques¬ 
tion depends on it—the absorption of labor. The demobilization of 
the Army and the absorption of labor hang on this matter, in my 
opinion. 

The Chairman. You think unless adjustment is quickly made it 
will result in tying up some of the industries ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I certainly do. 

The Chairman. Why? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Because their capital is tied up, 
and I do not think they will be able to go ahead and change over 
from our war-production basis to commercial business unless they 
can unlock that capital. The capital is largely borrowed. I know 
the banks are looking askance to-day at these contracts, and I think 
there will be many bankrupt firms unless something is done. 

The Chairman. The capital is tied up in war contracts? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Thomas. I want to ask a question which is perhaps 
foreign to this particular matter. It relates to the matter which was 
discussed here this morning. I am doing this at the request of 
Senator Hardwick. It is in regard to Camp Benning. The Senator 
wants to know whether operations are continuing there now or have 
been suspended. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. They have not been suspended in 
any one of the three camps referred to. We have reduced the force. 

Senator McKellar. Do you not think it is wise to suspend them 
for the present at Camp Benning? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. If we are going to complete the 
camp it would not be wise. That is the reason we simply slowed it 
down. If the feeling is that the camp—Camp Benning—should 
be abandoned, then we should shut down. 

Senator Thomas. I think Camp Benning should be abandoned. 

Senator McKellar. I speak only for myself, but I think that it 
should never have been started. 


60 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Thomas. Well, I would not want to go that far. 

Senator McKellar. I mean after the signing of the armistice. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. This was not started after the sign¬ 
ing of the armistice. 

Senator McKellar. I thought you said it was started after the 
signing of the armistice. I still stand by my statement, though, 
that this* should never have been started after the action taken by 
Congress in refusing to appropriate. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Camp Benning is not one of those 
two camps about which there was that difference of opinion. The 
two camps involved in that difference of opinion are Camp Bragg 
and Camp Knox. 

Senator McKellar. It was on precisely the same line and it was 
precisely the same thing, in my opinion. The department had ap¬ 
plied for specific appropriations for the other two and the ap¬ 
propriations had been refused, and the department went on in ap¬ 
parent disregard of the attitude of Congress and had them built, and 
I think this other camp is of a similar nature. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. As I stated to you this morning, 
our understanding was that the appropriation had been refused be¬ 
cause it was a duplication. We already had an appropriation, and 
Gen. Snow’s testimony, which was read into the record this morn¬ 
ing, gives that very plainly. 

Senator McKellar. I had a talk with the chairman of the Ap¬ 
propriations Committee, Senator Martin, and he is verj^ positively 
of the opinion that it was brought up before his committee, and 
that his committee struck it out on the ground that it ought not to 
have been built; that we had ample camps at the time and after¬ 
wards, as I understood him, the department went on and disregarded 
the congressional action in that regard and built it anyway. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think Gen. Snow’s testimony is 
very clear on that point. 

The Chairman. Do you not think that Camp Benning might very 
well be abandoned ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. While I understand the citizens of Columbus 
would like to see it go on, still the holders of the land would like 
to have it canceled. Now, with reference to this matter, where the 
Government has taken hold of land and utilized it, you would have 
a board to adjust the matter and make settlement for the use of the 
land—settle with the owners of the land? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. 

Senator McKellar. I do not want anything I said to be con¬ 
strued as opposing the rights of people who have been injured, in 
their claims for reparation. I think people who have been injured 
should have reparation, but I think we should not throw away 
$13,000,000 in building a camp we have no use for, when we have so 
many. We have only spent a million dollars already on that camp, 
and I think it should be abandoned. 

Senator Fletcher. I think, in view of the large expenditure con¬ 
templated, and the small amount invested to date, that it would be 
well to discontinue that enterprise at Camp Benning. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


61 


Senator Johnson. Mr. Chairman, in the matter we have been dis¬ 
cussing all day I want to call attention to the fact that the Hitchcock 
bill has been reported by the committee; that it is now before the 
Senate, and that some substantive action should be taken in refer¬ 
ence to it as soon as convenient, in accordance with the views ex¬ 
pressed here, which were apparently the consensus of opinion. 

The Chairman. I am frank to say, Senator, that my view has 
been changed since hearing these gentlemen. 

Senator Johnson. I was not very well acquainted with the terms 
of the bill when it was recorded, but after my chat with Mr. Thelan, 
I suggested that the subject was one of such great importance, of 
such overwhelming insistence, that we ought to take the matter up 
again, and that is the reason I brought it up again. 

Senator McKellar. I suggest that we fix to-morrow morning at 
half past 10. 

The Chairman. May I suggest that we meet day after to-morrow 
at half past 10 ? 

Senator Fletcher. And, in the meantime, have this printed. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Senator Weeks. I want to say just a word to the Secretary about 
this matter of camps, which I think the department ought to bear in 
mind, and that is in regard to the maintenance of camps after they 
have been constructed. That is going to involve a very large annual 
expenditure. Now, Congress, as represented in this committee— 
and, I suppose, by all committees—is very much disturbed about the 
condition of the finances of the Government. We have got to cut 
everywhere we possibly can, or else we will have a serious time of it 
in the next few years, from a governmental standpoint. Now, I 
think the department ought to bear in mind that it is really not the 
business of military men to pay any attention to expenditures. If 
you refer any question to a military board, they will never make a 
report which will mean a reduction of expenditures; they are looking 
for efficiency; it is their business to do it, and it is the business of 
somebody else to look out for expenditures; but I think the officers 
of the department ought to cut wherever it can be done, without re¬ 
gard to the recommendations of the military boards that have con¬ 
sidered the subject. 

Senator McKellar. Mr. Secretary, I am a great believer in hav¬ 
ing something concrete. We think your work at Benning ought to 
be stopped. Now, w T ould you care to have a resolution by this com¬ 
mittee asking you to stop it at once? Or would you prefer to go 
ahead and stop it without a resolution ? If you want a resolution, I 
think we can pass it instantly. 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. If you will pass the resolution, I 
will stop the work to-night. 

Senator McKellar. Then, Mr. Chairman, I move that the Secre¬ 
tary of War be requested not to proceed further with the work at 
Camp Benning, Ga. 

(The motion was duly seconded, put, and unanimously prevailed.) 

Senator McKellar. Now, just one moment, Mr. Chairman. Mr. 
JR. L. Stancill, of the Department of Commerce, representing Secre¬ 
tary Redfield, wishes to be heard for just a moment on this matter. 


62 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

STATEMENT OF MR. R. L. STANCILL, OF THE DEPARTMENT OF 

COMMERCE. 

Mr. Stancill. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the secretary merely 
wishes me to say that he considers it most important that the com¬ 
mittee take some action just as soon as possible in the matter of 
these contracts with manufacturers, a number of whom have come 
to him, and who find themselves in a helpless position, for which 
they are in no way to blame, with their capital tied up; and in a 
number of cases they are in this position because they answered a 
patriotic call from the Government to help meet a military 
emergency; and we should also consider it a patriotic duty of the- 
Government to handle this matter as quickly as possible, so that 
the condition of uncertainty in business circles, as a whole, may be 
relieved with the least delay. 

Senator Thomas. I do not think there is any question in this com¬ 
mittee—and I hope that there is not any question anywhere—re¬ 
garding the tremendously important nature of this matter. 

Senator Johnson. We are all in accord with that. 

Senator McKellar. Yes; it is merely a question of getting the best 
way to deal with it. 

Senator Thomas. I am willing to hold night sessions, if neces¬ 
sary. 

The Chairman. If there is nothing further before the committee,, 
we will adjourn now and meet again Thursday morning, at half past 
10 o’clock, and then we will dispose of this situation. 

(Whereupon, at 3.05 o’clock p. m., the committee adjourned to 
meet at 10.30 o’clock a. m. Thursday, January 9, 1919.) 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


FRIDAY, JANUARY 10, 1919. 

United States Senate, 
Committee on Military Affairs, 

Washington , D. G. 

The committee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., in the committee room, 
Capitol, Senator George E. Chamberlain presiding. 

Present: Senators Chamberlain (chairman), Hitchcock, Fletcher, 
Thomas, Beckham, Kirby, McKellar, Weeks, Wadsworth, Suther¬ 
land, New, Frelinghuysen, and Knox. 

FORT BENNING, GA. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

The committee yesterday made an order to reconsider its action 
with reference to the Fort Benning proposition. It is open now for 
hearing at the request of Senator Smith of Georgia. I believe that 
some citizens of Columbus are here. Senator Smith, whom do you 
desire to be heard? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Mr. Chairman, I would like to be 
heard for a short time upon the proposition. I first thought that 
probably you would want to hear from the military end with refer¬ 
ence to the matter. 

The Chairman. Well, we have already heard from the Secretary 
of War. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. But in addition to that I want, at the 
request of the Chief of Staff, to give you a little more fully the 
military technical position. 

The citizens of Columbus who desire to be heard wish to present 
to you the fact that the action of the Government amounts really to 
a transfer of title and simply the ruin of these people now unless the 
Government goes on in good faith with its purchase. There are 
many instances that they can cite to you in which farmers went off 
and bought other farmers at $10,000, $15,000 and $25,000, borrowed 
the money to pay it off, and had the notes in bank, moving the ten¬ 
ants as well as their horses, and moved their supplies. The Govern¬ 
ment has got it and has had it for two months. They do not allow 
the citizens to go upon the land except upon a Government permit, 
and the former owner of the land could not cut a branch of holly for 
Christmas off of his former possessions. As I have said, the Govern¬ 
ment has taken possession of the property and put them off. 

Senator Johnson of California. Has there been a complete ouster 
on all these 100,000 acres? 


63 



64 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes, sir; there has been a complete 
ouster. The Government is in possession, and the parties have gone 
off and bought other land, and agreements have been made of over 
$750,000 as an exact price, and in the others the procedure is in such 
shape that it is practically the same thing. 

Senator Johnson of California. The Secretary of War told us, 
Senator, that there had been thirty odd thousand dollars—I may be 

in error about that- 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Actually paid. 

Senator Johnson of California. Actually paid and commitments 
of about $100,000; is that correct ? 

The Chairman. It is something like that. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I am going to give you a great deal 
more accurate information even than the Secretary. I have had ex¬ 
perience as Secretary of a Department, and I know that the man 
representing the department in charge of the work gets the details 
of a particular job, as no member of the Cabinet can retain a knowl¬ 
edge of all of the work in his immediate department. 

The Chairman. Will you please indicate the order in which you 
desire to call these gentlemen? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes, sir. In the first place, I wish to 
lay before the committee the condemnation procedure by the Govern¬ 
ment filed November 2, claiming title to all this land under the act, 
and taking possession of it. 

The Chairman. In one proceeding ? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Against all the defendants? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Against all of the defendants, partly 
known and partly unknown, and subsequently those who were un¬ 
known were found. The Government mapped out the entire land 
that they wanted, platted it, and proceeded against that land and 
those known as owners, and those who were unknown, and went into 
possession of the entire land. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Have they any troops there now ? 
Senator Smith of Georgia. Oh, yes; the troops are entirely in 
possession of it. There are two or three schools running there now. 

Mr. Chairman. I believe I will put Col. Ames on the stand first 
to let you know the actual physical conditions there. 

The Chairman. We will have those proceedings incorporated in 
the record. 

Senator Smith. I should like to have that done, Mr. Chairman. 
(The paper referred to is here printed in full, as follows:) 

PROCEEDINGS TO CONDEMN LAW. 

In the District Court of the United States for the Northern District of Georgia, 
and the western division thereof. The United States of America v. One hun¬ 
dred and fifteen thousand acres of land (more or less) in counties of Chatta¬ 
hoochee and Muscogee, Ga., M. A. Anthony and others. No. 42 at law. Original 
petition to condemn filed in clerk’s office November 2, 1918. Hooper Alex¬ 
ander, Esq., United States attorney. Copy for service on W. C. Bradley. 

To the district court of said division and district: 

The petition of the United States brought by Hooper Alexander, United 
States attorney for said division and district, acting under the instructions 
of the Attorney General and at the request of the Secretary of War, respect¬ 
fully represents to the court as follows: 



LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


65 


1. That by an act of Congress approved July 2, 15)17, it was provided that 
hereafter the Secretary of War may cause proceedings to he instituted in the 
name of the United States in any court having jurisdiction of such proceed¬ 
ings for the acquirement by condemnation of any land needed for the site, 
location, construction, or prosecution of works for military training camps, 
such proceedings to be prosecuted in accordance with the laws relating to suits 
for the condemnation of property of the States wherein the proceedings may 
he instituted; with a proviso that when the owner of such land shall fix a price 
for the same which, in the opinion of the Secretary of War, shall be reasonable, 
he may purchase or enter into a contract therefor at such price without 
further delay ; and with a further proviso that when such property is acquired 
in time of war or the imminence thereof upon the filing of the petition for 
condemnation of any land for any of the purposes aforesaid, immediate posses¬ 
sion thereof may be taken and the lands may be occupied and used for military 
purposes, and the provision of section 355 of the Revised Statutes, providing 
that no public money shall be expended upon such land until the written 
opinion of the Attorney General shall he had in favor of the validity of the 
title, shall he suspended during the period of the existing emergency. 

2. That on the 24th of October, 1918, a state of war existed between the 
United States and the Imperial German Government, and between the United 
States and the Government of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which state 
of war still continues. 

3. That on the 24th of October, 1918, the Secretary of War elected to cause 
proceedings to he instituted in the name of the United States, in a court having 
jurisdiction of such proceedings, for the acquirement by condemnation of the 
fee simple title to a large body of land lying in the counties of Muscogee and 
Chattahoochee, in the State of Georgia, and needed for the site, location, con¬ 
struction, and prosecution of works for a military training camp and camps, and 
for the purpose of carrying said election into effect did request the Attorney 
General of the United States to cause condemnation proceedings to be insti¬ 
tuted for the acquisition thereof, the need for immediate possession of the 
same being at that time and now continuing to be urgent. 

4. That thereupon, under date of October 25, 1918, the Attorney General 
directed the United States attorney for the northern district of Georgia, in 
which district said counties lie, to institute proceedings in accordance with 
the wishes of the Secretary of War as expressed in the request of October 
24, 1918, made as aforesaid by the Secretary of War. 

5. Said lands are needed by the United States for the purposes indicated and 
alleged in the third paragraph of this petition. 

6. Included within the body of land which the Secretary of War so desires 
condemned and acquired, and constituting a part thereof, are certain lands 
lying in the counties of Muscogee and Chattahoochee, in the State of Georgia, 
in said Western Division of the northern district of Georgia, included within 
a boundary described as follows: Commencing at a point in land lot 79 of 
the seventh land district of Muscogee County where the' northern margin of 
Upatoi Creek intersects with the Chattahoochee River; running thence in a 
direction generally eastwardly along the northern margin of said Upatoi Creek, 
upstream and with the meaiylerings thereof, through lots 79 and 78 of said 
land district, to the point where the northern margin of said Upatoi Creek inter¬ 
sects the land lot line that divides lots 78 and 83 on the west, from lots 77 and 
84 on the east; thence northwardly along said land lot line between lots 59 
and 78 on the west, and lots 00 and 77 on the east, to the point at the north¬ 
east corner of lot 59, where the Lumpkin Road leaves the land lot line; thence 
along the Lumpkin Road and with the meanderings thereof, in a direction 
generally north, through lots 54, 37, 30, 13, and 9, to and across the waters of 
Bull Creek and to the northern or western margin of said creek; thence in a 
northeasterly direction along the said northern or western margin of said Bull 
Creek, to the district line separating lot 9 of said seventh district from frac¬ 
tional lot 85 of the Coweta Reserve; thence easterly along said district line 
until it reaches the southeastern corner of fractional lot 104 in said Coweta 
Reserve; thence north along the land-lot line separating fractional lot 104 
from fractional lot 105 in said Coweta Reserve, and along the eastern boundary 
of lots 103, 102, 101, 100, 99, and 98 to the northeastern corner of lot 98; 
thence west along the northern boundary of lot 98, lot 91, and part of lot 78 
to its intersection with Lawyers Lane; thence north and northwest along 
Lawyers Lane to the Macon Road in land-lot 77; thence northeast along the 


99137—19-5 



66 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Macon lload through lots 77, 76, and 93 until it intersects the land-lot line 
which is the northern boundary of land lot 93 aforesaid ; thence eastwardly 
along said land-lot line, and along the northern boundary of lots 93, 96, 113, 
116, 133, 136, and fractional lot 153, to the district line, which is the eastern 
boundary of the Coweta Reserve; thence north along said district line a short 
distance to the southwest corner of lot 10, and the northwest corner of lot 11 
in the ninth land district; thence eastwardly along said land-lot line, along 
the northern boundary of lots 11, 22, 43, 54, and 75 of said ninth district, to 
the northeastern corner of said lot 75; thence northwardly along the land-lot 
line, which is the western boundary of lots 87, 88, 89, and 90 of said ninth 
district, to the northwestern corner of lot 90; thence eastwardly along the 
land-lot line which is the northern boundary of lots 90.103, 122,135,154,167,186, 
199, 218, 231, and 250 of said ninth district, to the western boundary of lot 
296 in the tenth land district; thence southward along said land-lot line and 
the eastern boundary of lots 250, 249, 248, 247, 246, 245, and 244, to the waters 
of Upatoi Creek; thence continuing in said line, across the water of Upatoi 
Creek and into the county of Chattahoochee, and along the eastern boundary line 
of lots 243, 242, and 241 of the ninth land district of Chattahoochee County, 
to the district line which separates the ninth land district from the sixth 
land district of Chattahoochee County; thence along said district line a short 
distance eastward to the northeast corner of land lot 33 in said sixth district; 
thence southward along the land-lot line and eastern boundary of land lots 33, 
34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, and 42 of said sixth land district of Chattahoochee 
County and to the southeastern corner of land lot 52; thence west along the 
land-lot line and the southern boundary of lots 42, 55. 74, and 87 of said sixth 
land district, to the southwest corner of said land lot 87 and the northeast 
corner of land lot 107 in said sixth land district; thence south along the land- 
lot line and along the eastern boundary of lots 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, and 112 
of said sixth land district of Chattahoochee County, and continuing along the 
same line southerly along the eastern boundary of fractional lot 7. and lots 
112, 111, 110, 109, and 108 of the thirty-third land district of Chattahoochee 
County, and to the southeastern corner of lot 108 aforesaid, thence westerly 
along the land-lot line and the southern boundary of lots 108, 117, 140, 149, 
172, 181, 204, 213, 236, and 245 of said thirty-third land district, and con¬ 
tinuing the same direction westerly along the southern boundary of fractional 
lot 30 in the twenty-second land district of Chattahoochee County, to the Chat¬ 
tahoochee River; thence up the eastern margin of said Chattahoochee River 
northwesterly through said district and the seventh land district of said 
Chattahoochee County to the apex of the big bend in the river, and continuing 
up the river northwardly and northeastwardly along the eastern margin of said 
river, to and across the waters of Upatoi ('reek to the point of beginning; 
together with all the rights, members, appurtenances, and easements, includ¬ 
ing riparian rights, thereunto belonging or in anywise appertaining, the whole 
containing by estimation 115,000 acres of land, more or less, and constituting 
and being, as already alleged, a part of said tract of land so desired by the 
Secretary of War for the purposes aforesaid. 

7. The owners of said lands are unknown to ihe United States, but it is 
thought and believed that the persons hereinafter named own or claim to own. 
or hold <nne right, title or interest in various’separate parcels thereof the 
boundaries and descriptions of which separate tracts can not be at present 
stated, nor is it definitely known by what title they claim the same, nor even 
their residences, though it is alleged from information and belief that said 
parties re ide within said western division of the northern district of Georgia, 
some of them in the county of Chattahoochee and some of them in the county 
of Muscogee, to wit: Anthony, M. A.; Adams, Mrs. L. C.; Andrews, Mrs. 
Nellie W.; Browning, John 1).; Britt, Mrs. Charity A.; Becker, Tom.; Boland, 
Mrs. M. A„ the administrators and heirs of; Brown, II. I*.; Blackmon, airs. 
H. H.; Blackmar, A. <).: Boland. Mattie B.: Bussey, Arthur ; Bullock, (). C.; 
Bradley, W. C.: Clett, W. N.; Comer. M. L. F.; Cunningham, H. J.; Claxton. 
Woodie; Cook, I., the administrator and heirs of: Canes, John, the adminis¬ 
trator and heirs of; Cooper, Harry; Dorrington, I>. L.; Dimon, Julius; Davis, 
Webster; Evans, Henry, the administrator, and heirs of; Felton, Flora; Farley. 
Abram; Foster, W. M.; Foster, P. G.; Farr, J. A.; Fuller, Earne t C.; George] 
Mrs. Minnie L.; Garrett, G. ,J.; Garrett, J. B.; Guerry, Ben; Garrett, J. S.. 
the administrators and heirs of; Ginn, T. I).; Ginn, S. A.; Ginn, J. W.: Ginn, 
H. E.; Ginn, L. V.; Ginn, L. D.; Green, Mrs. N. F.; Gibson, Mrs. Mattie; 
Gammell. J. F.: Grisson, J. A.: Hughes, James F.; .Tones, Morgan : Jones. Mur- 


LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


67 


ray; Jones, Robert; Jennings, B. G.; Jordan, Annie; .lone', Wiley; Jefferson, 
Mrs. Marietta V.; King, G. W.; Kilpatrick, Frank; King, G. I).; Iviiulricks, 
W. W.; King, E. L.; King, Mrs. C. N.; King, (Jims. N.; Leonard, A. L.; Levy, 
Mrs. L. (\ ; Lew, Mrs. Isabel A.: Lewis, Robena H.; Massev, W. Y.; Massey, 
W. G.; Mas ey, Joseph W.; Molder. Mrs. M. L.; Moore, E. H.; McMurrain, 
S. IX; McBride, W. .).. the administrators and heirs of; MeGirt, W. I).: 
McGinty, Mrs. Robert; McGarrah, Mrs. B. G.; McGlung, John L.; McOutcheon, 
H. (1; McBride, S. J.; Newsom, John T„ and sister, whose name is unknown 
to plaintiff; Pierce, B. M.; Phelps, H. H.; Parker, Mrs. S. G.; Parker, W. A.; 
Pharris, Chas. E.; Pawley, H. F„ the adminbtrators and heirs of; Pou Bros., 
whose individual mimes are unknown to plaintiff; Pou, J. F.; Pou, John Dozier; 
Rankin, J. A.; Rothschild, B.; Hitch, Mrs. S. A.; Robinson, T. F.; Robinson, 
H. D.; Rogers, C. IX; Roberts, Mrs. M. L.; Revell, R. W.; Springer, H. A.; 
Smith, Mrs. Lula lv.; Stewart, John; Simmons, S. B.; Swift, Mrs. J. V., the 
administrators and heirs of; Scott, W. A.; Snelling, J. A.; Snelling, R. R.; 
Shorter, Delia; Schley, F. IX; Schley, F. V.; Schley, Mrs. F. V.; Schley, Wil¬ 
liam K.; Scroggins, A. G.; S almonds, J. A.; Sapp, Mrs. Annie F.; Thomas, 
,T. L.; Thomas, J. IX; Taff, Mrs. A. B.; Taff, Chas. M.; Taff, W. M.; Taff. Mrs. 
Mary; Taff, Sarah; Tenney, Hiram; Tomhlin, Ed T.; Thomason, <J. J.; Tom- 
blin, Joseph M.; Thornton, Lottie; Thornton, Elbert; Tumblin, Joseph M.: 
Underwood, Will II.; Underwood, C. B.; Van Horn, J. W.; Van Horn, Mary A.; 
Van Horn, W. J.; Van Horn, W. I.; Wynn, E. L.: Wynn, Mrs. Emily; Williams, 
King; Willi-, John L.; Walker, .1. T.; Walker, T.; Whyte, Mrs. Marie; Wool- 
folk. Mi-s. Vnnie K. ; Whatley, J. T. A Co.; Willis A Harvey, a firm whose indi¬ 
vidual names are unknown to plaintiff. 

8. Should it appear hereafter that there are other parties interested in the 
land, or having any right, title or interest therein, or to any part thereof, 
and whose interests or possible interests are sufficient to entitle them to notice, 
plaintiff will undertake to uinerd Lin - deJaration and petition and set out 
the same, and reserves the right so to do, as well as to correct any errors or 
insufficiencies that may exist in the descriptions heretofore given in the land. 

Wherefore, upon consideration of the premises et forth, your petitioner 
prays as follows: 

First. For a judgment against the property described, condemning the same 
and each and every interest and estate therein and the entire and unincum¬ 
bered fee thereof, to the side use and benefit of the United States, upon pay¬ 
ment into the registry of the court of just compensation therefor: and. as 
proper and incidental to the principal end. 

Second. For an order of the court, presently to be made, requiring all per¬ 
sons concerned, and particularly those persons whose names are hereinbefore 
set forth, to appear at a time and place in such order to be named, to make 
known their objections, if any, their rights, if any, tlieim claims as to the 
value of the property or of their respective interests therein, and any other 
matters material to their respective rights. 

Third. That said several persons named as aforesaid be served with copies 
of this proceeding as required by law, and that in any case where it may 
now -ecm to be in the interest of justice and of more effective notice, or where 
the same may hereafter appear, such other and additional service be ordered 
as may appear to the court to be proper. 

Fourth. That on the day and at the place named in said order, and after 
having first -passed on and adjudged all questions touching service and notice, 
and after hearing from all persons responding and desiring to be heard, the 
court shall make such order as to the appointment of assessors to fix fhe value 
of said property or of any interest therein as shall conform to law, or direct 
the question of value tried by a jury as may be proper and legal. 

Fifth That any and all orders, proceedings, and judgments that may 

speed the cause or secure due process of law, and 


be 


needed or appropriate to _ , 

which may be legal and appropriate, be made from time to time, to the end 
that upon due ascertainment of the value of said property, or of the several 
interests or estates therein, or liens thereon, and upon the payment of said 
values into court, the title of said property and of every interest or 


vested 


estate 
in the 


therein may be divested out of any and all other persons, and 
United States freed from and disencumbered of any and all liens and other 
claims thereon, and with full right to such writs of execution, assistance, or 
possession, and of all and any other writs and process that may be legal and 


possession 
appropriate for givin: 


full effect to such judgment. 


68 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Sixth. That at such time hereafter as it may appear necessary or proper to 
do so, an order be made for service of this suit by publication in such appro¬ 
priate way as may to the court seem legal and proper; 

Seventh. That leave be at the present time included in the order for any and 
all amendments to be made hereto that may hereafter appear to be legal and 
proper, in the way of adding ne\. parties to be served and notified of the pend¬ 
ency of this proceeding in rent, and such other amendments as may be necessary 
for giving the court full and complete information in the premises and secur¬ 
ing full and complete notice and legal process to all persons in interest. 

Eighth. For any and all other judgments and orders, whether the same be 
herein specifically prayed for or not, that may be legal and appropriate in the 
premises, and especially that it be ordered and adjudged by the court that 
all persons, whether named herein or not, who may have or claim to have inter¬ 
ests in said property in conflict with or adverse to the title or interests of any 
other person, have leave to file appropriate pleadings to make known such 
claim, and to pursue the fund so paid into court and have all such matters 
adjudicated in legal and timely sort between the respondents, but without 
further concern to the United States, except to pay into court the ascertained 
value and be invested with the title to the property aforesaid. 

Hooper Alexander, 

United States Attorney. 

(United States district court. Filed in clerk's office November 2, 1918. 
O. C. Fuller, clerk, by Jon Dean Steward, .deputy-clerk.) 


PROCEEDINGS IN REM TO ACQUIRE LANDS FOR THE USE OF THE UNITED STATES. 


In the District Court of the United States for the Northern District of Georgia, 
Western Division. The United States v. 115,000 acres of land, more or less, 
in Chattahoochee and Muscogee Counties, Ga., and the following persons 
who are known and who reside in the State of Georgia, to wit: Anthony, 
M. A.; Adams, Mrs. L. C.; Andrews, Mrs. Nellie W.; Browning, John D.; 
Britt, Mrs. Charity A.; Becker, Tom; Boland, Mrs. M. A., the administrator 
and heirs of; Brown, H. I*.; Blackmon, Mrs. H. H.: Blaekmar, A. O.: Boland, 
Mattie B.; Bussey, Arthur; Bullock, O. C.; Bradley, W. C.; Clett, W. N.; 
Comer, M. L. F.; Cunningham, H. J.; Claxton, Woodie; Cook, I., the ad¬ 
ministrator and heirs of; Canes, John, the administrator and heirs of; 
Cooper, Harry; Dorrington, D. L.; Dimon, Julius; Davis, Webster; Evans, 
Henry, the administrator and heirs of; Felton, Flora; Farley, Abram; Fos¬ 
ter, W. M.; Foster, P. G.; Farr, J. A.; Fuller, Earnest C.; George, Mrs. 
Minnie L.; Garrett, G. J.; Garrett, J. B.; Guerry, Ben; Garrett, J. S., the 
administrator and heirs of; Ginn, T. D.; Ginn, S. A.; Ginn, J. W.; Ginn, 
H. E.; Ginn, L. V.; Ginn, L. D.; Green, Mrs. N. F.; Gibson, Mrs. Mattie; 
Gammell, J. F.; Grisson, J. A.; Hughes, James F.; Jones, Morgan; Jones, 
Murray; Jones, Robert; Jones, Wiley; Jennings, B. G.; Jordan, Annie; 
Jefferson, Mrs. Marietta V.; King, G. W.; Kilpatrick, Frank; King, G. D.; 
Kindricks, W. W.; King, E. L.; Kings, Mrs. C. N.; King, Clias. N.; Leonard, 
A. L.; Levy, Mrs. L. C.; Levy, Mrs. Isabel A.; Lewis, Robena H.; Massey, 
W. Y. ; Molder, Mrs. M. L.; Moore, E. H.; Massey, W. G.; Massey, Jos. W.; 
McMurrain. S. I).; McBride, W. J., the administrators and heirs of; McGirt, 
W. D.; McGinty, Mrs. Robert; McGarrah, Mrs. B. G.; McClung, John L.; 
McCutcheon, H. C.; McBride, S. J.; Newson, John T., and sister, whose name 
is unknown to plaintiff; Pierce, B. M.; Phelps, H. H.; Parker, Mrs. S. C.; 
Parker, W. A.; Pharris, Chas. E.; Pawley, H. F., the administrator and heirs 
of; Pou Bros., a firm whose individual names are unknown to plaintiff; Pou, 
J. F.; Pou, John Dozier; Rankin, J. A.; Rothschild, B.; Ritch, Mrs. S. A.; 
Robinson, T. F.; Robinson, H. D.; Rodgers, C. D.; Ritch, S. A.; Roberts, 
Mrs. M. L.; Revel 1, R. W.; Springer, H. A.; Smith, Mrs. Lula K.; Stewart, 
John; Simmons, S. B.; Swift, Mrs. J. V., the administrator and heirs of; 
Scott, W. A.; Snelling, J. R.; Snelling, R. E.; Shorter, Delia; Schley, F. D.; 
Schley, F. Y.; Schley, Mrs. F. V.; Schley, William K.; Scroggins, A. G.; 
Sglmonds, J. A.; Sapp, Mrs. Annie F.; Thomas, J. L.; Thomas, J. D.; Taff 
Mrs. A. B.; Taff, Chas. M.; Taff, W. M.; Taff, Mrs Mary; Taff, Sarah; 
Tenney, Hiram; Tomblin, Ed T.; Thomason, G. J.; Tomblin. Jos. M.; 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


69 


Tumblin, Jos. M.; Thornton, Lottie; Thornton, Elbert ; Underwood, Will H.; 
Underwood, G. B.; Van Horn, J. W.; Van Horn, Mary; Van Horn, W. J.; 
Van Horn, \\ . I.; Wynn, E. L.; Willis & Harvey, a firm whose individual 
names are unknown to plaintiff; Wynn, Mrs. Emily; Williams, King; Willis, 
John L.; alker, .T. T.; Walker, J.; Whyte, Mrs. Marie; Woolfolk, Mrs. Annie 
K.: Whatley, J. T., Co.; and all and every other person unknown or non¬ 
resident. who claims any right, title, or interest in said described lands, 
whether under or in right of any of the above named, or otherwise. No. 
42 at law. 

• 

In the above-entitled cause, it is ordered that all persons concerned in the 
matter of the proceeding to condemn the lands referred to in the petition, that 
is to say, 115,000 acres of land in Chattahoochee and Muscogee Counties, Ga., 
appear before me in the United States court room at Atlanta, Ga., on the 4th 
day of January, 1919, at 10 o’clock a. m., and that they then and there make 
known their objections, if any, their rights,.if any, their claims as to the value 
of the property or of their respective interests therein, and any other matters 
material to their respective rights in the property sought to be condemned in 
said petition, whether said rights are known to petitioner or not, or whether 
or not they are fully and completely set forth in said petition. 

Let this order be filed in the clerk’s office in said division and district and 
attached to the original petition as process in the cause. 

Let a copy of the petition, together with a copy of this order, be, by the 
marshal of said district or his deputy, served on the following-named persons 
who are known and who are said to reside in Chattahoochee or Muscogee 
Counties, Ga., which service shall be perfected at least 20 days before the day 
above named for the hearing, that is to say: 

Anthony, M. A.; Adams, Mrs. L. C.; Andrews, Mrs. Nellie W.; Browning. 
John D.; Britt, Mrs. Charity A.; Becker, Tom; Boland, Mrs. M. A., the 
administrators and heir of; Brown. H. P.; Blackmon, Mrs. H. H.; Blackinar, 
A. O.; Boland, Mattie B.; Bussey, Arthur; Bullock, O. C.; Bradley, W. C.; 
Clett, W T . N.; Comer. M. L. F.; Cunningham, H. J.; Claxton, Woodie; Cook, I., 
the administrators and heirs of; Canes, John, the administrators and heir of; 
Cooper, Harry; Dorrington, D. L.; Dimon, Julius; Davis, Webster; Evans, 
Henry, the administrator and heirs of; Felton, Flora; Farley, Abram; Foster, 
W. M.; Foster, P. G.; Farr. J. A.; Fuller, Earnest C.; George, Mrs. Minnie L.; 
Garrett, G. J.; Garrett, J. B.; Guerry, Ben; Garrett, J. S., the administrator 
and heirs of; Ginn, T. D.; Ginn, S. A.; Ginn, J. W.; Ginn, H. E.; Ginn, L. V.; 
Ginn, L. D.; Green, Mrs. H. F.; Gibson, Mrs. Mattie; Gammell, J. F.; Grisson. 
J. A.; Hughes, James F.; Jones, Morgan; Jones, Murray; Jones, Robert; Jones, 
Wiley; Jennings, B. G.; Jordan, Annie; Jefferson, Mrs. Marietta V.; King, 

G. W.; Kilpatrick, Frank; King, G. D.; Kindricks, W. W.; King, E. L.; King, 
Mrs. C. N.; King, Chas. N.; Leonard, A. L.; Levy, Mrs. D. C.; Levy, Mrs. 
Isabel A.; Lewis, Robena H.; Massey, W. Y.; Molder, Mrs. M. L.; Moore, E. 

H. ; Massey, W. G.; Massey, Jos. W.; McMurrain, S. D.; McBride, W. J., the 
administrators and heirs of; McGirt, W. D.; McGinty, Mrs. Robert; McGarrah, 
Mrs. B. G.; McClung, John L.; McCutcheon, H. C.; McBride, S. J.; Newsom, 
John T., and sister, whose name is unknown to plaintiff; Pierce, B. M.; 
Phelps. H. H.; Parker, Mrs. S. C.; Parker, W. A.; Pharris, Chas. E.; Pawley, 
H. F., the administrators and heirs of; Pou Bros., a firm whose individual 
names are unknown to plaintiff; Pou, J. F.; Pou, John Dozier; Rankin, J. A.; 
Rothschild, B.; Ritch, Mrs. S. A.; Robinson, T. F.; Robinson, H. D.; Rodgers, 
C. D.; Ritch, S. A.; Roberts, Mrs. M. L.; Revell, R. W.; Springer, H. A.; 
Smith, Mrs. Lula K.; Stewart, John; Simmons, S. B.; Swift, Mrs. J. V., the 
administrator and heirs of; Scott, W. A.; Snelling, J. R.; Snelling, R. R.; 
Shorter, Delia; Schley, F. D.; Schley. F. V.; Schley, Mrs. F. V.; Schley,. 
William Iv.; Scroggins, A. G.; Salmonds, J. A.; Sapp, Mrs. Annie F.; Thomas, 
J. L.; Thomas, J. D.; Taff. Mrs. A. B.; Taff, Chas. M.; Taff, W. M.; Taff, Mrs. 
Mary; Taff, Sarah; Teney, Hiram; Tomblin, Ed T.; Thomason, G. J.; 
Tomblin, Jos. M.; Tumblin, Jos. M.; Thornton, Lottie; Thornton, Elbert; 
Underwood, Will H.; Underwood, C. B.; Van Horn, J. W.; Van Horn, Mary; 
Van Horn, W. J.; Van Horn, W. N.; Wynn, E. L.; Willis & Harvey, a firm 
whose individual names are unknown to plaintiff; Wynn, Mrs. Emily; Wil¬ 
liams, King; Willis, John L.; Walker, J. T.; Walker, T.; Whyte, Mrs. Marie; 
Woolfolk, Mrs. Annie K.; Whatley, J. T. Co. 

To the end that the tax collectors of Chattahoochee and Muscogee Counties, 
Ga., may make known to the court any claims due the State of Georgia or the 



70 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


counties of Chattahoochee and Muscogee for the taxes on said lands, if such 
there be, let a copy of the petition and of this order be served on the tax’ 
collectors aforesaid at least 20 days before the day named for the hearing. 

At the time and place hereinbefore mentioned for the hearing let full return 
be made before me by the marshal or his deputy, as to compliance with this 
order, and as to the execution of the directions herein given, at which time 
and place I will consider the returns of the marshal or his deputy with respect 
to service, and as to compliance with this order, and as to the execution of the 
directions herein given, and will pass upon the sufficiency of the service made 
and give such otlief instructions and make such other orders in the premises 
as may be conformable to law and in the interest of justice or more effective 
notice. 

When said returns have been received, and it has been ascertained how far 
it will be necessary to make additional service by publication, and when it has 
been determined what parties to the cause ought, according to law to be 
represented by a guardian ad litem, by reason of being minors or under some 
other legal disability, or who are of unknown residence or are themselves 
wholly unknown, an appropriate order on these subjects will be passed. 

This 15 day of November, 1918. 

William T. Newman, 

United States Judge. 

(Filed in clerk’s office November 15, 1918. O. C. Fuller, clerk, by R. Q. Fuller, 
deputy clerk. Attest: O. C. Fuller, clerk United States district court, by R. Q. 
Fuller, deputy clerk.) 

Senator Smith of Georgia. To that procedure the parties have 
answered, practically all of them, admitting the Government’s right 
to take the land, and have proceeded to either agree with the Gov¬ 
ernment on price, or are proceeding to name arbitrators under the 
statute who shall fix the price. 

STATEMENT OF COL. H. E. EAMES, COMMANDANT OF THE IN¬ 
FANTRY SCHOOL OF ARMS, CAMP BENNING, GA. 

The Chairman. Colonel, will you give your name, rank, and tour 
of duty. 

Col. Eames. My name is Col. H. E. Eames, colonel, commandant 
of the Infantry School of Arms, Camp Benning, Ga. 

Senator Smit,h of Georgia. Colonel, I think I will first get you to 
advise the committee as to what the status is at this camp, with refer¬ 
ence to the Government’s possession of the property, and when the 
Government went into possession of it? 

Col. Eames. We moved the school to Columbus in October. On 
November 2 these condemnation proceedings were entered, and I, 
as commandant of the school, was informed that I was now in actual 
possession and entitled to go upon any part of these 10,000 acres 
included in the boundaries laid down in the proceedings. 

Senator Thomas. What date was that? 

Col. Eames. November 2, and I actually on that date went into 
possession of certain portions of it that we needed at the time. Since 
then, I have gone on other pieces, ona after another. 

I have about 2,000 people, officers and men, who are now in the 
camp on the grounds on one spot. At another spot we are build¬ 
ing, and have about 2,000 other people, some civilians and some 
soldiers, where the building is going on. I have a target range 
where the men are shooting every day. The school is a student 
body of about 100 at the present time, and is in full operation, and 
I am in possession of the ground—the whole 115,000 acres. There 
are in the whole area something like 400 families, if I am correctly 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 71 

informed, and about 325 of those families have already moved off 
the land. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Part of that land was farm land, was 
it not? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What proportion of it? 

Col. Eames. I should say that it is estimated that 40 per cent 
was farm land. 

The Chairman. And the balance mountainous land? 

Col. Eames. Hilly land. 

Senator Frelinghuysen. Wooded land? 

Col. Eames. Yes: there are woods, pine trees and some brush. 

Senator Thomas. How much money has been expended on the 
project? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I will give you that a little later. I 
want to get information as to the people who moved off of it. 
What notice did you give? Did they vacate under your direction? 

Col. Eames. They vacated under my direction. 1 notified them 
in some cases through the newspapers, and in other cases the offi¬ 
cers would go to the people living in the houses, the tenants, and 
tell them to get off of a certain piece of ground that he wanted 
to use the ground for military purposes on that date. Then it was 
understood b}' me, and the people in that district, that I was in 
actual possession. They did remain in their houses after November 
2, but did it through my courtesy and not under any right. 

Senator Smith, of Georgia. I will get you to repeat the number 
of families who have actually left. 

Col. Eames There are about 325 families who have actually left 
and gone into other parts. 

Senator Smith, of Georgia. But all of them were notified? 

Col. Eames. They were all notified. 

Senator Smith, of Georgia. Have their houses been demolished? 

Col. Eames. In many cases they have been entirely demolished, 
and in other cases they are still standing. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. What proportion of the houses are 
standing ? 

Col. Eames. I could hardly tell you that; it is a very mixed up 
affair. In some cases they have taken down the houses, and in 
other cases they have taken down the fences and moved them off. 
In their removal from this area we have allowed them to salvage 
as much as they could, because of the difficulty of getting new build¬ 
ing materials and because of the necessity of getting established on 
the new farms. They had to move their tenants and their negro 
help from their present farms to others in order to hold them where- 
ever it was possible. It was not always possible. Take one case 
as typical—there were seventeen families on this particular land 
and there is not one left, and all the houses that those seventeen 
families occupied have been destroyed. 

The Chairman. Those are the tenants, or laborers? 

Col. Eames. They are tenants—or colored laborers. 

The Chairman. They were living in cabins, were they? 

Col. Eames. Yes, on the ground, and of course, are to-day down 
there, as the Senator knows. They are little a peculiar down there. 
They built up an organization just as a contractor builds up an 


72 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


organization; there are certain men who always stay with him. It 
takes money and years to build up a tenancy of that kind, and the 
negroes stay with the owner year in and year out, and many of the 
owners, in order to hold that organization together, have gone into 
other counties and bought farms, those large enough to hold their 
tenancy together, because they are a very valuable asset and hard 
to replace. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Have you any knowledge of the 
purchases made by the men who have moved off, and the circum¬ 
stances surrounding them ? 

Col. Eames. I know of a good many individual cases. Just be¬ 
fore I left I received a letter that possibly might be of interest to 
the committee. It is typical, I, as commanding officer, receive a 
great many visits from landowners who are asking for the money 
for their land. They want the thing settled so that they can go and 
buy other places and move to them. This particular letter I put 
into my pocket because it came the day I left Columbus. As I say, 
it is typical of a great many other cases, and if the committee will 
permit me I shall be glad to read it. 

The Chairman. Ver}^ well. 

Col. Eames. The letter is as follows: 


Col. Eames, 

Camp Benning, City. 


Columbus, Ga., -Iannary 3, 


Dear Colonel: I write for a bit of information that I may know what to 
do in the circumstances. I own a place on the Buena Vista Road 5 miles 
out, south side, consisting of 176 acres. The Government men, here, put a 
price on same that I did not think was what it was worth, hut still I accepted 
same rather than, he delayed in getting the money due me. I have, signed 
all the papers they required, and my titles have been looked up and found 
OK. This has been about a month ago and still they have not paid me the 
amount due, which is $7,700. I have had to borrow some more money to buy 
another place to move on amounting to $6,000, making a total of $13,700 tliat 
I am compelled to pay interest on or loose. It is costing me at the rate of 
about $75 per month which I can not afford to carry and the bank has sent 
me a notice that my note is due and they want the money. 

Now, I write to know if the Government is going to pay me, or not, and, if 
so, when? Some three months ago I called out to see you along with my 
father, and you told us at the time that our places were in the territory and 
that the Government would treat us fair and that you thought they would 
arrange to get the money at the bank foi us to carry until paid. Is the Govern¬ 
ment to pay this interest for delay or are we to lose along with our other 
troubles? 

Please write me fully on this line so I will know what to tell my bank 
president he can depend on, thereby obliging, 

Very truly, 


O. D. Edge. 


Senator Smith of Georgia. You say that is typical of the whole 
situation with reference to this matter? 

Col. Eames. That is typical of hundreds of cases. It is the case 
of the small farmer. The owner has 176 acres and the Government 
has gone on his particular piece of ground, and I am shooting over 
it now. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. How many schools are there at Colum¬ 
bus now ? 

Col. Eames. I have a total of four schools. During the war we 
had four schools for the technical training of infantry officers and 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


73 


soldiers in the use of their weapons. We had, at Fort Sill, in Okla¬ 
homa, a Government reservation, an Infantry school of arms, so 
called. At that school we taught the use of all small arms, and in 
addition to that we had at Camp Perry, Ohio, a school for marks¬ 
manship, where individual skill in shooting was taught. We had, 
at Augusta, Ga., a machine gun school where the use of the machine 
guns were taught, and at Raleigh, N. C., a tank school. 

All of those four schools, as a measure of economy, have now 
been concentrated at this one spot, in order to avoid overhead at 
other places, and in order to avoid the necessity of coming before 
Congress and asking for appropriations to buy land and build 
buildings on it at some other place. We now have four schools com¬ 
bined in this one. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. What connection did you have with 
the Fort Sill school? 

Col. Fames. 1 organized that school in 1915, and commanded it 
with an interruption, during which I was in Honolulu, and com¬ 
manded that at the time we left there, and moved here, and have been 
associated with the Fort Sill school since its beginning at that point. 
It was moved there from California. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Do you know what were the sizes of 
the four schools before consolidation; how many men were in all of 
them before you brought them all together at Columbus? 

Col. Eames. I can only give you that approximately. We had at 
Fort Sill about 2,000. I will say that there are others who can give 
you those figures more accurately than I can. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. What was the first plan for the school 
of arms at Columbus during the war; liow many were to be there? 

Col. Fames. About 26,000 were in that organization and 40,000 at 
the machine-gun school. As to the other schools there are others who 
can state that more accurately than I. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. What sized school is it now proposed 
to embrace in all four of those schools? 

Col. Eames. Ten thousand. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. A total of 10,000? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir, 10,000 total. 

The Chairman. Will you allow me to interrupt you? Is there not 
room enough at these other schools that we had on a peace-time basis 
to accommodate all the work that we really have to do in this particu¬ 
lar line after the war is over? 

Cal. Eames. No, sir; the school at Camp Perry was a small school, 
but would be sufficiently large to be continued in a very small way, 
perhaps. The school at Fort Sill is not large enough. I had to move 
out of there, although at that time I was reduced to 400 students. I 
moved because there was not room at Fort Sill. The machine-gun 
school, which is now at Augusta, was moved out prior to that from 
Fort Sill because it was crowded out and had no room. 

The Chairman. That is three? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. The tank school w T as not in existence at 
that time. 

The Chairman. Is it not possible—and I have in mind what 1 
understood the Assistant Secretary of War to say—that the men who 
have been ousted from these lands might be placed in the position 



74 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


they occupied, by paying them some compensation for the trouble 
they have gone to to move? 

Col. Eames. I do not believe you could ever restore the conditions 
as they existed there. 

The Chairman. Would it not be very much cheaper to restore 
them to their original condition and let the Government pay the 
owners for any damage that they have suffered rather than to go 
ahead and expend millions of dollars—it was estimated at about 
$13,000,000? Is it not cheaper for the Government to pay them than 
to expend that amount of money? 

Col. Eames. No, sir; it would be cheaper to go ahead with this 
project; it would be a saving of money to go ahead with this project. 

The Chairman. How much is it estimated that the project at 
Fort Benning will cost? 

Col. Eames. The total thing will be about $10,000,000. 

The Chairman. How much have they already expended? 

Col. Eames. They have expended and obligated about $1,500,000 
for building and construction and overhead, and about $3,500,000 
for the land. 

The Chairman. Are you right sure about how that has been ex¬ 
pended, for land? 

Col. Eames. That is assuming that the land is owned by the Gov¬ 
ernment now and payment has to be made; that would be $3,500,000. 

The Chairman. I do not think your statement of the condition is 
accurately in accord with that of the Assistant Secretary of War, 
although I may be mistaken. My understanding from his testimony 
was that they had not expended anywhere near that amount for the 
land. 

Col. Eames. The actual expenditure that has been made for the 
land is considerably less, very much less, than that, but I say, as¬ 
suming that we, by these condemnation proceedings, are actually 
in possession of the land and are obligated to pay for the land, we will 
then have to pay about three million and a half dollars. 

The Chairman. Would it not be cheaper for the Government even 
to pay the $3,500,000 and abandon the project than to go ahead and 
expend the $10,000,000 to maintain it as a peace-time proposition ? 

Col. Eames. I do not think so, because we would then have to buy 
land at some other place and construct buildings at some other place. 
There is no other place that I know of where we could put this 
school; at least I do not know of any, and I have made a very care¬ 
ful study of this project. 

This may interest the committee; the commanding generals of 
the Western Department, Southern Department, and Southeastern 
Department were each directed by the War Department to send a 
board of officers into all the States comprising their departments, 
in order to locate a suitable place for this school. These boards 
went out and spent a month or two in a careful examination of 
hundreds of sites extending from California to Virginia, and in 
every State between. As a result of that, the three boards reported 
certain sites as suitable and certain others as quite unsuitable. After 
a period of time the proceedings of these boards were sent to me, 
as president of the Fourth Board, and I examined them and my 
board went over the territory as I say, from the Pacific to the 


LAND F0K ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


75 


Atlantic, looking for a site that would meet the military require¬ 
ments of the school, with which I was familiar, and this place at 
Columbus was decided upon in preference to anything we saw. 

Senator Thomas. Why is that, Colonel? What is there about 
the topography or environment of this particular place that makes 
it, according to your statement, the one desirable place for this 
sort of school between the Atlantic and the Pacific? 

Col. Eames. In the first place, it is the climatic condition; the 
men can have training the year around. We must not be inter¬ 
rupted in the winter by storms and cold weather. 

Senator Thomas. But that is not peculiar to Columbus. There 
are a great many ranges throughout the country that would answer 
the purpose just as well. 

Col. Eames. That is the first condition. The next condition is 
that we must not be interrupted by periods of rainy weather, that 
is to say mud would interrupt our training. At Columbus we 
find a peculiar geological (ondition that enables us to work right 
through the rain, and immediately after the rain. We had in the 
last month or two six or seven inches of rain and the day after¬ 
wards we worked on the ground because of the peculiar porous and 
sandy condition of the soil. In addition to that, we have to dig 
trenches in connection with our school work, and that digging 
must be economical. At Columbus I dug trenches in about one- 
fourth of the time, and used no dynamite. At Fort Sill I had to 
practically blast all my. trenches. Every time you put trenches 
in that kind of ground it requires revetment; that is to say, you 
must either revet it with sand bags or wood or some other mate¬ 
rial, and the cost of revetting trenches is very high. At Columbus, 
on account of the peculiar soil at that place, I have found that the 
soil would stand in a perfectly vertical wall after the trench was 
cut. I have one trench down there that I dug and filled with water 
and allowed the water to stay in it a week,- and at the expiration 
of that time the vertical wall was just as vertical as it was when it 
was put in. So T save the necessity of this constant revetting of 
trenches. 

Senator Thomas. That acreage was for how many men in train¬ 
ing? 

Col. Eames. Ten thousand. We had originally twice that when 
we were figuring on a larger school. Another peculiar thing.is that 
w T e must have barrage drills, and we must have a flat piece of 
ground, open ground, and also wooded sections, and that we find 
there. We must also have and it is quite important, a target range 
which is quite extensive, and must have a perfectly flat piece of 
ground so that it will not cost money to drain the place. We have 
found that at Columbus at a point where the buildings in which 
the students are going to live, can be placed right at the target 
range. That is very important in the matter of saving time. At 
the present time I have to move my students five miles to a target 
range and then back again. That means gasoline to move them 
there or loss of time if they are moved by foot, that the school can 
not stand; therefore they have to be moved back and forth on a 
truck at a loss of time and considerable expense. That is obviated 
if they can live right next to the range. 


76 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Thomas. What is the acreage at Fort Sill ? 

Col. Fames. There are 56,000 at Fort Sill. 

Senator Kirby. How many men did you say this is intended to 
accommodate—10,000 men in training? 

Col. Eames. Ten thousand men. 

Senator Kirby. What military establishment is 10,000 men in 
this course expected to fill the need for? 

Col. Fames. About half a million. 

Senator Kirby. How often do you train these men and what is the 
course? 

Col. Eames. Every officer who conies into the service must go 
through these schools. 

Senator Kirby. What I am trying to get at is, do you expect 
to keep 10,000 men in this camp all the time from now on? 

Col. Eames. All the time, continuously. The student body 
is 2,000. 

Senator Kirby. With an Army of possibly 500,000 men? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; it means a student body of 2,000. 

Senator Kirby. How long does it take to finish this course ? 

Col. Eames. The length of the course has not been definitely de¬ 
termined, but about six months. We train not only officers but non¬ 
commissioned officers as well. 

Senator Kirby. And it is the only school in the country where 
you train men? 

Col. Eames. It is the only school. 

Senator Thomas. Do you mean by that that Fort Sill has been 
abandoned ? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; for infantry and cavalry it has been aban¬ 
doned. It had to be abandoned because the artillery needed all 
the ground for their particular school. 

Senator Thomas. We are told that the artillery has been pro¬ 
vided for with two tracts of ground, one in Kentucky and one in 
North Carolina, aggregating something like 180,000 acres. 

Senator New. And one at Tobyhanna. Pa. 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. I am not an artilleryman, but I understand 
those are not schools in the class that Fort Sill school is. The Fort 
Sill school is devoted to a peculiar class of work. 

Senator Kirby. Why should you have 250,000 acres of ground to 
train men to shoot a rifle that would not shoot over a thousand yards. 

Col. Eames. It is not as much as that; it is only 115,000. 

Senator Kirby. And in the machine-gun ranges how many yards— 
two hundred and fifty ? 

Col. Eames. No, it is the same thing. 

Senator Kirby. I know they will shoot that far but not farther 
than that. Do you have any machine guns there? 

Col. Eames. With these tanks, we will have “75’s” same as the 
regular artillery. 

Senator Kirby. How many men in the tank corps are you expected 
to have there? 

Col. Eames. We have 450, and about 50 officers. 

Senator Kirby. If we do not have another war in five or ten years 
you would expect to train every man and officer, and everything, 
through that school in the next ten years ? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


77 


Col. Eames. Not the enlisted men, but we do hope to train the 
officers. It is the only center where we can train: we have no other 
school and we must train them—the Infantry and Cavalry officers. 

Senator Kirby. Why do you think that the officers ought to go 
through that school to learn how to shoot a machine gun? 

Col. Eames. Because an officer may be called on at any time to 
shoot a machine gun. 

Senator Kirby. How many men are in the machine-gun unit? 

Col. Eames. As to the size of the units—there are 16 guns in 
a company, and four companies form a battalion, and two companies 
form a motorized battalion. 

Senator Kirby. In the smallest unit, how many men are there? 

Senator Thomas. Do you not mean how many men to a gun? 

Senator Kirby. No ; I mean how many men in the smallest unit— 
16 guns? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. The infantry officer, as I said, has to know 
the machine gun because at any time he may be detailed to command 
a machine gun unit. He must know also the rifle, how to shoot the 
rifle and how to control and direct fire from the rifles. He must know 
the automatic rifle, which is a part of his equipment. He must know 
about the grenades and the 37-millimeter gun because he may be 
called on at any time, and he must understand the 3-inch trench 
mortar, which he may be called upon at any time to command, and he 
must know the whole subject of electric control, which combines all 
parts of the unit. 

Senator Kirby. That is very fine in theory, but do you mean to tell 
me that every infantry officer and every cavalry officer had to go 
through the school to know all those things? 

Col. Eames. I believe the American people do, and they are con¬ 
templating to combine them all, so that any man who would be called 
upon would know everything about it. 

Senator Kirby. How long does your school estimate that it takes 
to teach a man to shoot an automatic rifle—the Browning? 

Col. Eames. Six weeks. 

Senator Kirby. The automatic heavy gun—the Browning? 

Col. Eames. I should say it takes three months to learn that. That 
is a very complicated thing. 

Senator Kirby. It looked to me as if you ought to learn it in three 
days. I have seen both of them. I have shot the rifle and have seen 
other men do it. 

Col. Eames. You must remember that in shooting the heavy ma¬ 
chine gun there is a great deal of mathematical work connected with 
it. The gunner never sees his target. 

Senator Kirby. With the machine gun, you mean? 

Col. Eames. Yes; he never sees his target. He is behind a hill. 
If he exposes himself for a minute every bit of the cavalry within 
2 miles comes over and takes tea with him, and he must keep out 
of sight. Therefore, he does not see his target; in a great many in¬ 
stances the gunner never sees his target, but some commander half 
a mile away by the determination of the difference in elevation 
between the gun and the target, and by calculation of the range 
between the gun and the target, tells the gunner what elevation to 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


. 78 

put on his quadrant so that his gun will be elevated just the correct 
amount to put the bullets where the target is. 

Senator Kirby. That is very good in theory, but it would be a good 
deal better to be a little closer than that. 

Col. Eames. You would be surprised to see how we can do it. 

Senator Sutherland. They have to take all these guns apart, do 
they not? 

Col. Eames. They have to do that in the dark; they have people 
blindfolded who do it. 

Senator Kirby. There is another thing that I want to ask you 
about. These men are taken from other establishments; you do not 
know what the military establishment is going to be; you are esti¬ 
mating 500,000? 

Col. Eames. About that. 

Senator Kirby. And this would be one continuous school? 

Col. Eames. One continuous school going on at all times. 

Senator Kirby. West Point would not have anything to do with 
this ? 

Col. Eames. We take the graduates of West Point. Our body is 
now the last class that graduated. 

Senator Kirby. What is the use of having West Point? 

Col. Eames. West Point is the foundation school which has noth¬ 
ing to do with the teaching of the technical use of arms. It is the 
foundation school and the educational institution which gives the 
men the necessary foundational education upon which you can build 
the post graduate. 

Senator Kirby. What disturbs me is that we have West Point and 
it is a three or four year course, and we have these other things of 
three or four years, and then we have a situation where you can take 
a man out here and put another fellow with him, training him to 
fight and take his regiment right through battle and you lick the 
other fellow, and what is the use of having this ? 

Col. Eames. You can teach them in three months. The system 
is comparable to a man going to college and spending four years at 
college, and then if he is going to be a lawyer, he has to go on and 
spend more time in learning how to be a lawyer. 

Senator Kirby. And West Point is not a military school? 

Col. Eames. It is a college in which the curriculum is based on 
what he is going to use afterwards, and we are the postgraduate 
schools; the Artillery is the postgraduate school. 

Senator Kirby. I thought this was a training camp; I did not 
know it was a school. 

Col. Eames. It is a school just as others are. It is a postgraduate 
school and the West Pointer comes there with the basic education 
necessary to go on with this work. 

The Chairman. What we are particularly anxious to know with 
regard to this matter is the necessity for maintaining other schools, 
buying so much land to do this postgraduate work. 

Col. Eames. I can show you how it works out. If you figure out 
the 2,000 students devoting their time to and utilizing everything 
in the most economical way, dove-tailing the schedule in, you will 
find about 50 shooting problems going on at one time. In this area 
each problem takes a space of ground about 1 mile wide and 2 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


79 


miles, or 2^ miles long, and when you put those things down on a 
map, having due regard to the topography of the ground that you 
suppose you can use, you will find that there are 115 so far—I have 
been able to figure out 39—nevertheless I can get along with 39. 

Senator Kirby. Why could you not train them alternately, every 
other day in one area and not keep on training them all the time in 
a proposition like that? 

Col. Eames. Many of them are not doing that. Many of them 
are in the class room. Many are learning how to throw the grenade, 
at which time we are not shooting in this area. They are in a com¬ 
paratively small area. 

Senator Kirby. Waiving the question about the grenade, do you 
think you can train men much in throwing the grenade, only bv 
letting them go out and throw it? 

Col. Eames. We train them in throwing the grenade in that way, 
but that is only one part of it. 

Senator Kirby. He does not have to have much theory about that 
after you show him how to throw it and give him the grenade? 

Col. Eames. Yes; there is a great deal connected with that. A 
grenade is a heavy thing and a man can only carry a limited number 
of them, and every one of those things we take into account. 

Senator Kirby. You throw it just like you do a rock or a baseball? 

Col. Eames. But you hit the mark oftener than you do with a 
rock. In addition to that, these are officers, remember, and they must 
know how to load these grenades, because they do actually load 
them. They must be taught how to handle high explosives, taught 
the chemistry of these explosives, and they are taught the chemistry 
of explosives, and how to handle high explosives, and how to handle 
these things in a most efficient way. 

Senator Kirby. The officers are not taught to do it are they ? 

Col. Eames. Every officer who goes through the school, because 
a man must go out to his company and teach the 250 men. 

Senator Kirby. But there are very many people who shoot a shot¬ 
gun in this country. I know how to load a gun, but I do not load 
a shell, and nobody else does. 

Col. Eames. But they do load the grenades. 

Senator Kirby. Do you mean that they are not furnished with the 
grenades by the factories and sent to the ground to be used? 

Col. Eames. Some of them are loaded, but without the detonators. 
We have to put in the detonators. They would be unsafe to send 
them with the detonators. 

Senator Kirby. Do not the girls at the factories put the detona¬ 
tors in? # 

Col. Eames. No sir; they come separately because they would be 
too dangerous to transport. 

Senator Kirby. In this connection I want to mention to the com¬ 
mittee a matter with regard to this proposition of buying so much 
land in Kentucky. There is down in our State—it was called to the 
attention of these people, and I am not complaining about it— 
a forest reservation of from 25 to 30 miles long and 90 miles 
wide. It is 30 miles from Camp Pike. It is broken and hilly and 
nobody lives on it. There are 50,000 acres of land with a railroad 
running through it and adjoining this, and you can see 30 miles. 


80 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


away from some of those hills for direct fire, and you would have 
three or four hundred feet for indirect fire. That land would not 
cost the Government a cent—a range 30 miles long and 90 miles wide. 
It is about 30 or 40 miles from Camp Pike, and it has three big rail¬ 
roads right by it. 

I only mention that to show that this Kentucky land, which may 
be what they Deed, and a better class of land for a range, will have 
to be purchased, and this land the Government has and may be 
utilized without any expense whatever. 

Senator New. I want to go back a little for a better understanding 
personally with respect to the condition attending the purchase of the 
land down there. Do you understand that you have that land under 
option, or in what way are you proceeding? 

Col. Eames. No, sir; it is taken under condemnation proceedings. 

Senator New. That is what I wanted to know, the stage to which 
that has gone. 

Senator Thomas. I will say, Senator New, that that is all in the 
record. Col. Eames put it in the record before you came in. 

Col. Eames. On the 2d of November condemnation proceedings were 
instituted and I was authorized to, and did take actual possession of 
115,000 acres of land. A copy of the proceedings of condemnation are 
now on the table. That was on the 2d of November. 

Senator Johnson of California: At the commencement of the action 
on November 2d, were there any contesting parties? 

Col. Eames. They made answer to this petition. 

Senator Johnson of California. That is, the various defendants 
made answers? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Johnson of California. And the issue has been joined but 
not tried. 

Col. Eames. Yes, not tried. 

Senator Johnson of California. There has been no determination 
then in the particular action ? 

Senator New. That is what I wanted to know. 

Col. Eames. No, sir; that is a legal matter about which I do not 
know. 

Senator Johnson of California. Senator Smith can probably ex¬ 
plain the situation. I do not quite understand how you could "com¬ 
plete the ouster simply with the issue joined. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. The statute allowed the Government, 
on account of the war, to simply file a procedure to take. Thereupon 
title passed to the Government and the Government put them off and 
the only thing to .be done under this procedure is not to determine 
whether the Government shall have it but where the Government and 
the parties do not agree upon the price to name arbitrators and let 
them fix the price. The subsequent procedure is simply a matter of 
price. The statute takes the property from the property owner and 
gives it to the Government. 

Senator Johnson of California. So the action is one merely to de¬ 
termine the amount ? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. The subsequent matter is to determine 
t he value of the land. About $750,000 has been definitely agreed upon. 

Senator New. The Government has paid for what portion of this 
land? 


LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


81 


Senator Smith. Oh, very little, but it has taken it all and put the 
people off. 

Senator New. The entire area? 

Senator Smith. The entire area. 

Senator Sutherland. Every property owner in that area has 
been subjected to this process? 

Senator Smith. Every property owner and every piece of land. 
A large number of them have agreed with the Government as to the 
price and moved off and bought new land, and given notes for it— I 
will show you a lot of them. 

Senator Weeks. Are you familiar with the testing ground at 
Aberdeen, Md. ? 

Col. Eames. I have been there. 

Senator Weeks. Is there any reason why that ground could not 
be used for testing for the same purpose for which you intend this 
tract at Columbus, Ga.? 

Col. Eames. It could be used for testing, but if you use it for 
testing, you could not use it for training troops because the troops 
would be drilling on the ground when the shoting was going on. 
They are testing at Aberdeen all the time. 

Senator Weeks. They have been, but they will not be doing so in 
the future. 

Co. Eames. If they follow the practice that is in vogue at Sandy 
Hook, they will be testing all the time. 

Senator Weeks. How much area is used at Sandy Hook? 

Col. Eames. I do not know. 

Senator Weeks. It is just the one range, is it not? 

Col. Eames. I do not know. 

Senator Weeks. You know there are 40,000 acres or thereabouts 
at Aberdeen? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Weeks. And it covers a very long frontage? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Weeks. It seemed to me, in going over that ground there 
was a large amount of area available for purposes of this kind and 
for testing. 

Col. Eames. There is not enough area in this ground if the testing 
is taken off entirely. There is not enough ground for the present 
school. 

Senator Weeks. Was the forced sale ground large enough for 
the purposes for the Army before we entered the war? 

Col. Eames. Before we entered the war there were three schools, 
the Artillery School, the Infantry School of Arms, and the Machine 
Gun School. As soon as we got into the war then the artillery ex¬ 
panded and the others had to go out. 

Senator Weeks. Before the war, was it sufficient? 

Col. Eames. It was sufficient at that time. 

Senator Weeks. It was sufficient for all purposes—for an army of 
100,000 men ? 

Col. Eames. I should say it was hardly sufficient for 100,000 men. 
Just before we went into the war we had less than 100,000 men. 

99137—19-6 


82 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Weeks. Did I understand you correctly to say that the 
chemistry of projectiles and such kindred matters were not studied 
at West Point? 

Col. Eames. Yes, they are studied at West Point, and as long as 
our students were graduates of West Point, we could eliminate that, 
but many of the students are not from West Point, but come from the 
National Army and other sources. 

Senator New. Are you familiar with the ground at Tobyhanna, 
Pa. 

Col. Eames. No, sir. 

Senator New. You know nothing of its area and availability for 
the purposes for which you want this Columbus site ? 

Col. Eames. No, sir. 

Senator New. Do you know when it was bought? 

Col. Eames. No, sir; I know nothing about it except a general 
knowledge of the ground, etc. 

Senator New. Do you know anything of the post at Sparta, Wis. ? 

Col. Eames. Only in a very general way. Col. Wiley has all that 
information. 

Senator New. Is he here? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. By whom was this selection made at Columbus ? 

Col. Eames. I selected it. The board of which I was a member 
selected it .after a previous board had recommended it. It was one 
of the sites recommended by the board or commission that investi¬ 
gated some half a dozen sites and recommended Columbus as being 
best suited. After that board had rendered its decision, some sev¬ 
eral months afterwards, I went there and examined it. 

Senator Weeks. Did you examine these grounds at Arkansas to 
which Senator Kirby has referred ? 

Col. Eames. No, sir. The nearest place we examined was Mus¬ 
kogee. 

Senator Sutherland. How many hours would your men actually 
practice shooting ? 

Col. Eames. Eight hours a day. 

Senator Sutherland. Constantly, every day in the week ? 

Cob Eames. Four hours in the morning and four hours in the 
afternoon. 

Senator Sutherland. You expect to have 34 such parties working 
on the range? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; we have two characters of firing, one where 
we teach the men individually to shoot. That is the basic teaching 
of the men who are to use a rifle or who are to command men who 
will use rifles. That is the first thing he is taught. He goes on the 
A range and is taught how to hit things with a rifle. 

Senator Sutherland. How many men are there in a machine gun 
company ? Senator Kirby asked that a moment ago. I do not under¬ 
stand that it was answered. 

Col. Eames. They have been changed from time to time. I am 
not familiar with that. 

Senator Weeks. What would be the cost of the ammunition for the 
purposes which you just described for a year; of the ammunition 
which you would use, in your opinion ? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


83 


Col. Eames. I could not give that without a little examination 
into it. I have not had any experience with a school of this par¬ 
ticular size. We are still in a transition stage as to the length of 
the course, and how many students will come and the length of the 
course given them. It will be quite difficult to answer that without 
a careful study. 

Senator Weeks. Assuming it is used to full capacity, will you put 
in your testimony an estimate of the ammunition used? 

Col. Eames. I find that there is on hand accumulated for use in 
the present war a supply of ammunition that will last almost exactly 
20 years if consumed by an army of 250,000, including this school at 
the present authorized allowances. The cost of this ammunition in 
any year will vary so much with the annual allowances that I am 
unable to give any figure that will be at all reliable or valuable in 
connection with this inquiry. 

Senator Knox. I would like to ask you a question about the con¬ 
demnation proceedings. Do I understand they have been begun in 
respect to all of this land? 

Col. Eames. Virtually all of it. 

Senator Knox. And that the owners have been dispossessed? 

Col. Eames. They have been dispossessed—technically they have 
been dispossessed. Out of some 400 families that occupied the 
territory some 325 have actually moved off. 

Senator Knox. You used a word there that will enable me to 
get at what I want. When you say they have been technically dis¬ 
possessed, do you mean proceedings have begun in the courts by 
which the titles have passed into the Government from the owners? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; I was so notified by the district attorney, 
that on November 2 he had filed his bill and that I was in pos¬ 
session of the ground and could go into any part of it. 

Senator Knox. So that by adverse action of the Government you 
have taken this land from the owners, and that applies to all the 
land ? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kirby. What have you done by way of occupying and 
improving this land? What have you done about occupying this 
territory and improving it or changing the condition so that it can 
not be used for what it had been before, since the signing of the 
armistice? 

Col. Eames. We have completed a target range which involves 
the digging of a number of pits. 

Senator Kirby. Have you dug pits 100 yards long or 300 yards 
long—what length are they? 

Col. Eames. We have three targets. 

Senator Kirby. Does it cut across 2 acres or 10 acres or what? 

Col. Eames. It is about 250 to 300 feet long. There are five pits, 
in addition to which there are four firing points. In addition to 
that I have had 25 smaller pits that are 5 or 6 feet deep scat¬ 
tered over a considerable area. In order to fire in this camp, I 
have moved the people out of the ground back of it. 

Senator Knox. In connection with what I inquired into a mo¬ 
ment ago, have you ever asked the Solicitor for the War Depart¬ 
ment or the Attorney General as to whether or not the Government 


84 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


had the right, after it had begun condemnation proceedings and 
dispossessed the owners of the land, to change its mind and to re¬ 
store the land to the owners by merely paying a compensatory 
damage ? 

Col. Eames. No, sir. 

Senator Knox. 1 think it would be interesting for you to ascer¬ 
tain that fact or at least ascertain what the opinion of the legal 
department of the Government is on that subject. I think it has a 
great deal to do with what we ought to do in this case. I know in 
some States the law—it is in my own State—is that where a corpo¬ 
ration, exercising the power of eminent domain, has once begun pro¬ 
ceedings of condemnation, the status of debtor and creditor arises as 
between the corporation and the owner of the land, and the owner 
of the land may insist, even though the corporation may not desire 
to use the land, that the corporation shall keep it and must pay 
for it. 

Senator Smith. I think in this instance that it is very much 
stronger than in a State, because in the case of a State, the rule is 
that you must tender pay or bonds. The Government, in this case, 
simply takes it and puts the owner off, on the entry of procedure, 
and leaves him subsequently the problem of agreeing to a price or 
arbitrating a price, but takes the property. I have a copy of the 
act here. 

Senator Kirby. Just there; when the Government could restore 
this land, this property, and where the owner has only moved away, 
he would be damaged only to the extent of the expense involved in 
moving. 

Senator Smith. He would not be- 

Senator Knox. That does not touch the question we have raised. 
The question is, may the Government, if it has actually begun con¬ 
demnation proceedings, change its mind and conclude it will not 
take the property. 

Senator Kirby. Certainly, any time until the matter is concluded. 

Senator Knox. I do not express an opinion on it. I only tell you 
the rule in my State. 

Senator McKellar. The courts have held differently in Tennes¬ 
see. It has decided that they could do it. 

Senator Johnson. Before you came in, the testimony developed 
that not only had they dispossessed people, but in many instances 
they had actually demolished the improvements, and in 300 cases, in 
round numbers, out of 400 families, in round numbers, 300 had abso¬ 
lutely departed and moved. 

Senator McKellar. There is no question about paying them what 
damages they have suffered. I do not think any man on the com¬ 
mittee would object to that. 

Senator Sutherland. Where did you do the training in rifle 
shooting before the war? 

Colonel Eames. At Fort Sill. At that time we only taught the 
electric use of the rifle and machine gun. 

Senator Sutherland. Only in a limited way? 

Colonel Eames. Only in a limited way, yes, sir. It may be perti¬ 
nent to understand how the school was used when this war came on. 
At that time we organized a great number of divisions and we had 
a limited number of officers to instruct with the various numbers of 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


85 


weapons with which the infantry was armed. The War Depart¬ 
ment sent a great many to Fort Sill and they have been trained in 
handling certain rifles. Those officers were returned to their respec¬ 
tive divisions and established a school of arms, each one, of course, 
being trained in one single feature and by means of that school 
established in the Infantry division, spreading throughout the di¬ 
vision, it rendered possible the training of the men. 

Senator Sutherland. The necessity of the larger training has 
arisen, I presume, from the war? 

Col. Fames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kirby. The efficiency a man acquires from this training 
should last for some years, should it not? 

Col. Fames. For several j^ears, unless changes occur. 

Senator Kirby. We have enough officers now for 4,000,000 men, 
have we not ? 

Col. Fames. But many of them are not trained. 

Senator Kirby. They did pretty good fighting, did they not? 

Col. Fames. Yes, sir; some of them did excellent fighting. 

Senator McKellar. What are you going to train them for now, 
Colonel ? Is it the purpose to carry on the training the same as we 
did during the war? 

Col. Fames. I think it is the intention as long as we have an army, 
to have it trained in the right way. 

The Chairman. We have a lot of witnesses and we ought to try to 
confine ourselves to the one proposition. 

STATEMENT OF ME. E. J. WYNN. 

The Chairman. Please state your name, residence, and occupation 
to the stenographer. 

Mr. Wynn. E. J. Wynn, Columbus, Ga. 

Senator Smith. Just state what you know about this tract of land 
that the Government proceeded against on November 2 and your 
own relations to it. 

Mr. Wynn. Well, I know that this condemnation proceeding was 
commenced as Col. Fames has testified to. I owned about 2,000 acres 
of land myself in the area, and the Government officer came around 
and served me with a copy of this bill, and I immediately commenced 
to make my preparations to vacate, all of which I have made. I had 
about 150 head of shorthorn cattle and probably 150 head of Hamp 
shire hogs, thoroughbred, and I had to make my preparations to get 
out. I have not entirely vacated all the land, but I am doing the 
best I can, and I know there are a great many other people down 
there who have done the same thing, and in order to vacate, I could 
not find any place on which to move all of my property, except to 
buy it and I went 26 miles from where these lands of mine are lo¬ 
cated. I agreed w r ith the Government on a valuation of about $20 
per acre for my land. The lands which I purchased I do not con¬ 
sider as valuable lands from the standpoint of fertility, by any means, 
and these particular lands cost me $45 per acre. I bought this land 
and I paid the money for it and have a deed to the land, and a great 
many of other people have actually moved out and vacated, and 
there are some others there, but I think the entire people recognize 


86 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


the fact, from the best opinion which they obtained, that the Govern¬ 
ment had a right to do what it did, and that they have got to vacate, 
and they consider it the land of the Government and not of the peo¬ 
ple. I considered it that way and not only in my own case but I have 
advised other people. 

Senator Knox. Senator Smith, it seems to be so very important 
that perhaps I am justified in asking if you can answer this question: 
Looking at the statute under which these proceedings were begun, 
that you handed me a moment ago, I observe that the Secretary of 
War may do one of two things. He may either condemn the use of 
the land or condemn the title of the land. He may take temporary 
use of the land or permanent title. Can you tell us whether the 
condemnation proceeding was for the use or for the title? 

Senator Smith. The title—all of them. I will ask you to state 
whether you had the money with which to pay for the land you 
bought, or did you go and borrow it? 

Mr. Wynn. I paid $15,000 for this tract of land. I did not have 
the money, but I was fortunate enough to have the credit. 

Senator Smith. Do you know to what extent men have gone off 
the land there and borrowed money and bought on credit to get land, 
thinking the Government had taken their land and would pay them 
for it? 

Mr. Wynn. To a very large extent. It is my opinion there are 
others who have not done that who probably did not know just 
exactly how to manipulate and go to the banks and borrow the 
money, and they are now, to use a common expressions, between two 
millstones, and do not know what to do. January first has come, and 
it is time they are pitching their crops, and many of them are 
remaining there, and some few of them do not know just exactly 
what status they are in. 

The Chairman. What proportion of the men, do you think, within 
the limits of his Government survey would prefer to be placed back 
in status quo, that is, have the Government proceedings released and 
accept whatever damages they have suffered from the Government 
in payment? 

Mr. Wynn. You only ask me to give my opinion? 

The Chairman. Your opinion; that is all. 

Mr. Wynn. Probably 10 per cent. 

The Chairman. Do you think, or is it your idea that is so because 
the price paid by the Government was in excess of the value of the 
land, or the resulting inconvenience? 

Mr. Wynn. No, sir; the question of labor is a very mooted one, 
and exists in all this southern country. The labor to handle those 
farms down there is a considerable trouble. It is one that has given 
me more trouble than anything I had pertaining to my farming 
interest. I had my tenants and tried to educate them up to my way 
of doing business, and I manipulated them so that they made a living 
out of it and seemed to be satisfied, and I had no trouble in holding 
them, and there are other people who have done the same thing. 
These tenant laborers have vacated, and I would be in a very bad 
situation if I had to replace them in my individual case. 

Senator Smith. Did you want to give up your farm and sell it 
to the Government or keep it? Would you have preferred not to 
have been interrupted and keep it or sell it? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


87 


Mr. Wynn. 1 would rather not be interfered with because I was 
making money on that farm, and I kept books on every farm I have. 
I know those I make money on, and I know those 1 do not make 
money on. 

Senator Smith. Was there any effort on the part of any property 
owners to try to get the Government to come and take the land or 
was it forced on them? 

Mr. Wynn. I do not know anything about that. 

Senator Smith. How about the the Chamber of Commerce of 
Columbus? Was that inactive? 

Mr. Wynn. I do not know. 

Senator Sutherland. Was this property taken on options? 

Mr. Wynn. I do not believe any options were taken. I know 
they did not have any on my lands, and the first knowledge I had of 
their taking the land was their coming there and then the condem¬ 
nation proceedings. 

Senator McKellar. What percentage of your land was under 
cultivation ? 

Mr. Wynn. On this particular area lying in the camp site I sup¬ 
pose I ran probably 10 or 12 plows. I did not get my profits out of 
the ground, but out of raising stock. 

Senator McKellar. Was any of the land subject to overflow? 

Mr. Wynn. Not of mine; no, sir. 

Senator McKellar. About 400 acres open and about 1,600 under— 
what were they? Was that cut-over land? 

Mr. Wynn. I do not know what you mean by cut-over land. 

Senator McKellar. I mean the timber cut off. 

Mr. Wynn. The timber had not been cut off. There was no origi¬ 
nal timber on it. It was the second growth. 

Senator McKellar. That is what I mean by cut over. • 

Mr. Wynn. I do know that it was cut over in my day. 

Senator Smith. Was it pasturage land? 

Mr. Wynn. Yes, sir; and in my opinion that is where I got 
best profits. 

STATEMENT 0E MR. G. H. HOWELL. 

The Chairman. Give your name and address to the stenographer, 
please. 

Mr. Howell. G. H. Howell. 

Senator Smith. Judge, you are judge of the superior court down 
there? 

Mr. Howell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. Tell, as briefly as you can, what you know of the 
proceedings in which the Government took this land. 

Mr. Ho^vell. I was reared in Chattahoochee County and my 
father and my wife’s mother and I own some land. The first I knew 
of it, some two or three years ago through the efforts of some Colum¬ 
bus people, as I understood it, options were obtained on some lands 
in that territory for the purpose of locating a cantonment as they 
understood they might hope to get at that time. 

Senator New. Some two or three years ago? 

Mr. Howell. Yes, sir; about the beginning of the war. I could 
not give the date—perhaps a year and a half ago—and my under- 


88 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


standing was that they did secure some options; that is, some of the 
Columbus people, and made some effort to have one of these can¬ 
tonments located at that point. My understanding is that those 
options expired before this project was suggested, and that after¬ 
wards this condemnation bill was instituted and included a part 
of this area which had been formerly considered and also a large 
area of territory that had not been considered on which options had 
not been obtained previously. That is my understanding. 

Senator New. The parties obtaining these options brought this 
site to the attention of the Government ? 

Mr. Howell. I do not think the land owners did, but I think per¬ 
haps some interested citizens of Columbus brought it to the atten¬ 
tion of the War Department. 

Senator Smith. That was not in connection with this undertaking 
and had no reference to this? 

Mr. Howell. No, sir. 

Senator Smith. That was a cantonment effort, was it not? 

Mr. Howell. That was my understanding at that time. I do not 
think the business men at Columbus thought so much of the kind 
of camp they would get. .They were trying to get one for the benefit 
of the city. 

Senator Southerland. Did not the original promoters of the 
proposition stay in on this deal until the present proceedings? 

Mr. Howell. No, sir; I think you will find all the options expired 
before this condemnation bill was instituted. 

Senator New. Have they not a contingent interest finally in these 
proceedings ? 

Mr. Hewell. No, I do not think so. 

Senator Smith. I think I can state to you that the options had ex¬ 
pired and the enterprise had been abandoned. 

Mr. Howell. According to my construction of one of the options 
I saw, it had expired. I had never given any option. 

Senator Sutherland. How does the price at which these lands 
were first optioned compare with the price now agreed to be paid 
by the Government? 

Mr. Howell. Absolutely, T could not tell you except in one case. 
My wife’s father had some land down there that aggregated 4,700 
acres. My recollection is that he had given options at different 
prices for different lots, for an average prive of about $27.50 an acre. 
The price fixed in the valuation by the representatives of the land 
office at $12 an acre is quite considerably less than that amount. 
That is the only instance of which I have any personal knowledge. 

Senator Smith. Judge, in order that the committee may under¬ 
stand you, these options were not taken by private citizens to sell to 
the Government ; they were options to the Government straight, were 
they not? 

Mr. Howell. I really would not like to say. I do not know 
whether the options were so worded as to give the option to the Gov¬ 
ernment or to the Columbus Chamber of Commerce. My best recol¬ 
lection, however, is that according to the reading of the options they 
gave an option to the Government, but I would not like to be under¬ 
stood as saying- 

Senator Smith. They were not obtained with a view to selling to 
the Government and making a profit? 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


89 


Mr. Howell. I do not think so, Senator. 

The Chairman. What proportion of these lands are in one county? 

Mr. Howell. I could not tell you. There is about 115,000 acres in 
the tract, as I understand it, and perhaps more than half, or perhaps 
60 per cent is in Chattahoochee County and the balance in Muscogee. 
Maybe that is not an accurate statement of it. That is my guess at it. 

The Chairman. Can you tell me what the assessed value of the 
lands in one county is? 

Mr. Howell. How do you mean—assessed by the governmental 
authorities ? 

The Chairman. I want to know what revenue the taking of the 
land by the Government will take from your county authorities ? 

Mr. Howell. I can not tell you. The portion of Chattahoochee 
County taken is quite considerable in area, and also in Muscogee. 

The Chairman. I am asking about that because there is some pro¬ 
test about the taking of these lands. 

Mr. Howell. I understand that. 

The Chairman. One protest I got is that it will take a large por¬ 
tion of the revenue of producing land of the county and it may 
cripple the counties because the land will not be subject to taxation 
when the Government gets it. 

Mr. Howell. It will reduce the revenues of the county, but also 
there will be some reduction of the expenses on the county. 

Senator Thomas. There will be some offset. 

Mr. Howell. There will be some offset, to say the least. 

Senator Smith. You own land in the county? 

Mr. Howell. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. Have you gone off and bought land elsewhere? 
What have they generally done? I just want the committee to get 
a general conception of what the effect of this action has been upon 
these people. 

Mr. Howell. The first effect it had upon me is that when this 
condemnation bill was filed, before a copy of it was served on me, I 
examined the act that the Senator referred to just now, and my 
construction of it, which I do not pretend to be correct—because I 
am very frequently wrong—my construction was this was a con¬ 
demnation proceeding to acquire title to the land and when the 
Government immediately entered into possession of it, it amounted 
to taking over the land by the Government for the purpose of ac¬ 
quiring title. I was not absolutely certain on that in my mind, from 
a reading of it, and I consulted counsel on the subject and we came 
to that conclusion. Shortly after that Col. Fames, the commander 
of the camp, published a notice, at the request of a very large number 
of landowners, including ourselves, lie published a notice giving 
some idea to the people as to when they would be expected to vacate. 
He very kindly did that, and I do not know exactly when, but shortly 
after the condemnation bill was filed, about November 2—perhaps 
about November 15 or 20—he published a notice in both of the 
Columbus papers, stating that the people who resided in the territory 
included within these boundaries and in which the boundaries were 
particularly described, in the newspapers, would be ‘expected to 
vacate one’district of the county on or before February 1, 1919, in 
another specified district, on or before March 1, 1919. and in another 


90 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


part of the territory, on or before April 1, 1919, clearly indicating 
to them, according to my recollection, that the Government was then 
in possession of the land and had acquired it for a military purpose. 

Senator Thomas. Were any of these notices earlier than the 1st 
of February? 

Mr. Howell. Yes, sir, the notices were published in- 

Senator Thomas. No ; I mean the notice to move—when they must 
move ? 

Mr. Howell. They were to move on or before the 1st of February. 

Senator Thomas. That was the first limitation? 

Mr. Howell. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. How many moved out? 

Senator Smith. Are you not mistaken? Was not part required to 
move before November 1? 

Mr. Howell. I am speaking about the notice in the newspapers. 
A notice had been served on individuals, in a great many cases, and 
a great many had vacated. 

Senator Thomas. There were published notices and individual 
notices ? 

Mr. Howell. Yes, sir; and others told me they were notified to 
get out immediately. A great many came to me and told me they 
had been notified, particularly in a certain territory, on a rifle range, 
to get out immediately, and it is my understanding that they did. 
I was just referring to the published notices, Senator. 

Senator Smith. There was a published notice that some of them 
move on December 1? 

Mr. How t ell. This is a copy of the notice I referred to. It says 
at the bottom—near the bottom of the notice—that— 

This will make it dangerous, after about December 1, for people to live in the 
area along the St. Mary’s Road, and the Steam Mill Road, for a considerable 
distance east of the firing point described. These people will therefore have to 
move by December 1, after which date travel along the St. Mary’s Road and 
Steam Mill Road will be interrupted except in the early morning and late 
evening. People living along these roads, and west of Steam Mill Creek should 
be prepared to move on or before December 1. People living immediately upon 
the Cusseta Road will not be disturbed as this road is not endangered by firing. 

But in the beginning of this article, it is my recollection that cer¬ 
tain people were given until February 1 to move. It was expected 
that they would move as soon as convenient, and ample time was 
given to move their property off the premises. 

Senator McKellar. Assuming, for the moment, that the Govern¬ 
ment will not put a camp or cantonment there, such as has been con¬ 
templated, do you think that under those circumstances, if the de¬ 
partment were to send its officers and agents down there and take each 
individual case and make full reparation, or find it is necessary, in 
cases, for the Government to keep such portions of the land as has 
actually been taken and the people dispossessed—don’t you think 
that would be better for your county than for the Government to 
take all of the land at the agreed prices, and just hold them without 
making any use of them? Don’t you think, as a landholder, for in¬ 
stance, if you had not been dispossessed you would be willing to take 
your full reparation of whatever might be agreed upon between the 
department and yourself—would it not be better for your county 
and for as many of those people who remain in the county to get 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


91 


their reparation and remain on the land than to be dispossessed and 
that portion of the land remain idle ? 

Mr. Howell. I am very glad to answer your question, as to myself, 
and to give you the best opinion I can with reference to the others. 
Personnally, I expect to contend, through counsel, in the United 
States court, that this condemnation proceeding amounted to a con¬ 
demnation of the title to my land, and I expect to try to have it ad¬ 
judged that the Government should pay me the full purchase price 
of the land, and the Government should look after the question of a 
redisposition of it. 

Senator McKellar. Have you agreed upon a price ? 

Mr. Howell. No, sir; and I really think that is the best thing for 
most of the people, I will say, in this territory. There are some few 
in the country, I know, who have not yet vacated, who still have 
their tenants, who have been hoping all along on account of the con¬ 
tinued discussion of this subject, that this project might be aban¬ 
doned, although we were assured by published notice from the Assist¬ 
ant Secretary of War that this project was to be completed—well, 
they hoped that something would happen to stop it. Naturally there 
are some difficulties that members of this committee know we would 
have if we should try to collect damages. Personally, I would not 
like, in my case, to have my claim take its weary way through the 
Court of Claims. There are grave delays. I think you would have a 
great many disputes as to the amounts that we have been damaged, 
and it would cost us a great deal of trouble and expense and, in many 
cases, the trouble and expense would amount to as much as the small 
damages involved. I think it would be entirely-- 

Senator McKellar. There is some little trouble in fixing damages 
in condemnation suits. 

Mr. Howell. Yes, sir; but the law provides a very fair way, I 
think. My understanding is that the Government selects an ap¬ 
praiser to represent the Government, and the landowners select one, 
and if they can not agree they select another, and that is certainly a 
much fair way than their present way of valuing the land there. 

Senator Thomas. There is no delay in paying the condemnations? 

Mr. Howell. I do not think so. 

Senator McKellar. In the condemnation proceedings they have 
a jury? 

Mr. Howell. My understanding is that if the property owner or 
the Government are dissatisfied, that they have a right to take this 
matter before a jury. 

Senator Thomas. The proceedings are under the State law, although 
they may come in the United States District Court. 

Mr. Howell. That is my understanding. 

Senator McKellar. Where were the proceedings filed? 

Mr. Howell. Filed at Atlanta and transferred to Columbus. 

Senator McKellar. These appraisers could only be appointed by 
agreement. They would not be under the judicial proceedings? If 
you carried out the judicial proceedings which have been brought, 
they would be attended with the usual delays in courts, because a 
jury of view would probably pass on the matter and then a jury in 

the court room- _ . 

Mr. Howell. That is not my understanding of the law. 


92 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Thomas. It is a Georgia law. You ought to know. 

Mr. Howell. I say I have given my construction of it. I have 
had my attorney appear, among others, before the judge on the 4th 
of January, and I will state this much to the committee, that articles 
of appraisement or an order of appraisement, as I understand it, 
would then have been issued but for the fact that this committee still 
has this matter under consideration, and Judge Howard thought 
it would save a great deal of expense to all of us and a great deal 
of expense to the Government, if he would wait awhile until he as¬ 
certained what the action of this committee would be. 

Senator Johnson. What county are your lands in ? 

Mr. Howell. Chattahoochee. 

Senator Johnson. How much of the lands of this county are taken 
for this project? 

Mr. Howell. Something like 50 or 60 per cent of the area. 

Senator Johnson. Is there any other county whose land is taken 
by the project, as well? 

Mr! Howell. Yes; a part of Muscogee County in which I now 
live—about 40 per cent of Muscogee. That is purely a guess. 

Senator Johnson. Forty per cent of one county and 60 per cent of 
another ? 

Mr. Howell. 1 suppose so. 

Senator Johnson. Would it have a particularly disturbing effect 
upon your two subdivisions there to have that great portion of your 
counties taken? 

Mr. Howell. Undoubtedly it would affect them some. It would 
affect the revenues of the sheriff’s office- 

Senator Thomas. Do you mean that the area comprises 60 per cent 
of Chattahoochee County or that 60 per cent of the land taken is in 
Chattahoochee County ? 

Mr. Howell. I really think that Col. Eames or Maj. Jones, who 
are here, could give the committee more definite information about 
that than I could. 

Senator Thomas. I wanted to get at what you really meant, 
whether 60 per cent of the land taken is in Chattahoochee County or 
whether the amount of land taken in Chattahoochee County amounts 
to 60 per cent of the area of the county ? 

Mr. Howell. I think 60 per cent of the area is in Chattahoochee 
County. 

Senator Thomas. That is very different from its comprising 60 
per cent of the entire acreage of the county. 

Mr. Howell. I am satisfied that Maj. Jones or Col. Eames could 
lay before the committee a map giving this in more definiteness. 

Senator Thomas. More than 40 per cent of Chattahoochee County, 
as it exists, is left after this area is carved out? 

Mr. Howell. I think so; yes. sir. 

The Chairman. Is there not a part of your delegation here to be 
heard in opposition to the condemnation of this range? 

Mr. Howell. Undoubtedly, sir; as might be expected this propo¬ 
sition strikes people different ways. 

Senator McKellar. Could you give the committee any informa¬ 
tion with reference to the number of families who have moved out, in 
Chattahoochee County? 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 93 

Mr. Howell. I had only three families on my place. They have 
moved out. 

The Chairman. Were they white or colored? 

Mr. Howell. One was white. One of the negroes had been on the 
place over 30 years. He came and asked my judgment, and I told 
him that it looked to me as if the Secretary of War had authority 
to condemn this land. That was before the armistice was signed, 
and I told him that 1 wanted to deal fairly with him, and I told 
him I thought it would be the best for him to look out for his own 
interests, and 1 tried to help him to find other farms. 

The Chairman. They have moved out? 

Mr. Howell. Yes, sir; the two negroes, one has moved to Musco¬ 
gee and another to another farm. The white tenant has moved 
some 12 or 15 miles over to a farm that I own. 

I will state to the committee that you can secure accurate informa¬ 
tion rather than any opinion evidence from me, as to the number of 
land-owners who have consented to this condemnation bill, who have 
asked that they be paid from the land, from the records of the United 
States Court at Columbus, from the answers filed in court on Janu¬ 
ary 4. That is, you can secure accurate figures as to the number of 
them that have been filed by conferring with the clerk of the United 
States court at Columbus, but naturally a great many of those 
answers have not been filed and will not be until March 8, when 
those who were not served in time will file answers, and who w T ere 
made defendants afterwards. 

Senator New. I have heard of some data prepared, I presume by 
the War Department—I do not know by just whom—but it gives in 
condensed form here nearly all the information that is wanted on 
these various subjects, concerning the area- 

Senator Sutherland. That, in connection with some data I have, 
makes a very complete showing. I think it would be well to put 
them both in. 

Senator New. I think both of these should be put into the record. 

(The matter referred to by Senator New was subsequently sub¬ 
mitted and is here printed in full as follows:) 

War Department, 
Washington, January —, 1919. 

My Dear Senator : In compliance with your verbal request, I have the honor 
to forward herewith lists of the principal landowners, with the acreage of 
each holder, at Camp Benning, Columbus, Ga., and Camp Bragg, Fayetteville, 
N. C. 

The records of the real estate section are incomplete, in so far as the data 
requested is concerned, as that office makes its record from the reports re¬ 
ceived from their representative on the ground; the latter transmit their re¬ 
ports as they definitely determine acreage and ownership of each tract con¬ 
cerned. Due to suspension of activities at these two camps, the records of 
owners has not been completed at either camp. It is believed, however, that 
the lists furnished you include the more important holdings. 

Cordially, yours, 

Benedict Crowell, 
Assistant Secretary of War. 

Hon. Harry S. New, 

United States Senate. 



94 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS, 


Camp Benning , Columbia, Ga., landowner* (partial list). 


Acres. 


Andrews. Barshall_ 450 

Averett, Chas. L_ 417$ 

Adams, I. F., estate_ 1,190 

Bullock, O. C_ 2,000 

Banks, Ml*.s. Thos. H_ 348* 

Blackmar, John_ 231 

Berry, T. E_ 218 

Blackmar, A. O_ 20 

Do_ 200 

Do_ 7 

Do_ 297 

Blanchard Lumber Co_ 113 

Do_:_ 202$ 

Blackmar, R. M_ 6 

Boland, Mrs. Mattie_ 51 

Brooks, J. H_ 185$ 

Brennan, J. D_ 160 

Bond, Mrs. G. E_ 252$ 

Bond, Mrs. J. L_ 50 

Bussev, Arthur_ 1, 782 

Bradley, W. C. Co_ 2, 338 

Black, Mrs. L. R_ 1,413 

Browning, J. D_ 101$ 

Brewer, J. S_ 158$ 

Britt, Z. D_ 540$ 

Bray, E. S_ 50 

Britt, J. E„ ,T. M„ Z. D_ 30 

Bussey, B. W_ 1,822$ 

Blanchard, W. R_ 113 

Bagley, Mrs. Price E_ 202$ 

Cooksey, Mrs. W. D_ 272$ 

Chappell, L. H_ 6 

Comer, M. L. F_ 50 

Comer, O. A_ 100 

(looper, Harry_ 2$ 

Do_ 125 

Cunningham, W. I_ 101$ 

Cody, W. E_1_ 343 

Coleman, John_ 4 

Christian, J. R., and wife_ 708$ 

Coleman, Caines J_ 48 

Cooksey, Win. T_ 276$ 

Clark, John W_ 50 

Cusseta Naval Store_ 328$ 

Cook. Mrs. J. T_ 28 

Cook, T. J_ 252$ 

Cliatt, W. M_...__ 98$ 

Clark, George_ 303$ 

Davis, John T_ 607$ 

Daniel, J. W_ 101$ 

Dalton, T. J_ 177$ 

Davis, Webster_ 70 

Daniel, C. K_ 202$ 

Davis, Calvin (estate)- 200 

Duncan, J. Robert- 130 

Dorrington, D. P_ 25 

Dismukes, E. P., estate-_ 122$ 

Dismukes, E. P_ 310 

Evans, George_ 101$ 

Edge, O. D_ 176 

Ellis, G. H_ 307$ 

Elliot, S. H_ 202$ 

Edge, C. J_ 42 


Acres. 


Elliot, F. B 

781$ 

Elliot, Miss Alice 

Flournoy 

101$ 

Ford, G. W 

80 

Fuller, Mrs. Dixie 

100 

Fox, Mrs. Kate 

400 

Farr, T. E 

74 

Do_ _ — 

191$ 

Fuller, E. C 

70 

Felton, Flora 

50 

Flint, J _ _ _ 

40 

George, Mrs. M. L 

632 ’ 

Ginn, S. A 

624 

Ginn, J. W 

Greer, Mrs. N. F 

151 

Ginn, J. W. and H. E 

175 

Grimes, T. S 

18.6 

Gordy, George G 

202$ 

Garrett, G. J. and J. B 

405 

Do _ _ 

202$ 

Do 

202$ 

Gafford, W. H 

5971 

Gilmore, Mrs. Martha 

150 

Griffith, Mrs. A 

101$ 

Ginn, L. D 

217 

Ginn, Thos. D 

335$ 

Jones, Mrs. Josie M 

405 

Jones, Hattie 

6 

Jones, T. W 

73 

Jones, Tom 

100 

Jonesl Amanda 

4 

King, B. J 

2021 

King, G. D 

2021 

Do 

202$' 

Kitchen, Harrison 

6 

King, G. W 

405 

Kissic, S. P 

451$ 

Kendrick, W. W 

230$ 

Do 

50i 

King, Elisa 

514$ 

King, A. J 

Lumpkin, F. G. and E. M. 

20 

Ransom 

500 * 

Lewis, Mrs. Robena H 
Leightner, Mrs., and chil- 

175 

dren 

101$ 

Lamb, Mrs. Ella May 

202$ 

Levy, Isabel 

561 

Lewis, Bettie 

47$ 

Livingston, Mrs. Amber_ 

1921 

Molder, Mrs. M. L. _ . 

2421 

Moore, E. H 

50 

Matthews, A. J., estate_ 

101$ 

Miller. H. E 

25 

Minter, C. C 

101$ 

Mitchell, Dr. T. E 

25 

McCutcheon, H. C 

100 

McAmis, W. H 

85 

McCardle, C. L 

McBride, C. C., and Mrs. 

175 

Abbie L , 

151 

Do 

152 

McBride, R. W 

5671 
























































































































LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


95 


Acres. 

McCord, Mrs. E. C_ 110 

Newsome, W. E., and F. M. 

Moye_* 101 } 

Owsley, E. P_ 117 

Parjer, W. A_ 101} 

Pou, John Dozier, et al_ 1, 200 

Putman, J. R_ 53} 

Plielts, A. P_ 94 

Psalmonds, J. S_ 1,620 

Pekor, C. F_ 152 

Purvis, L. D__ 50 

Pierce_,_ 55 

Rankin, J. A_ 360 

Rich, Mrs. Sarah A_ 1622} 

Rothschild, B_ 405 

Rogers, E. C_ 105 

Rogers, C. I>_ 50 

Rogers, A. N_ 170 

Rogers, Edith_ 45 

Stewart, James M_ 50 

Stanton, Wilkes_: 56 

Stevens, C. V_ 395} 

Smith, Mrs. Lula K_ 2,168} 

Simons, S. B_ 170 

Simons, C. F_ 101} 

Sapp, Mrs. Annie E_ 607} 

Springer, H. A_ 644 


Acres. 

Skinner, L. W_ 105 

Schley, Mrs. F. V_ 1,106} 

Scott, W. A_ 231} 

Spellers, Neil, heirs_ 202} 

Thornton, A. L_:_ 149 

Terry, W. R_ 60 

Tinney, K. H_ 20 

Thomas, Walter_ 357 

Taylor, William_ 127 

Tomblin, Joseph M_ 109 

Tate, T. L____ _1 10 

Thomason, George J_ 101} 

Thornton, J. H_ 254 

Tomlin, G. W_ 152 

Tomlin, F. B., jr_ 100 

Thomas, J. L_ 405 

Underwood, W. H_ 150 

Whatley, J. T., Co_ 202} 

Wynn, E. J_ 1,994 

Warner, Mrs. Susie S., and 

Miss Annie Swift_ 361} 

Wilson, C. F_ 125 

Williams, H. H_ 30 

Whyte, Marie L_ 325 


Total_56,131.81 


Camp Rragfi, N. C.. landoinirrs. 


HOKE COUNTY. 


Acres. 

W. P. Barker___ 846 

W. M. Blue_ 2,990 

N. S. Blue_12,000 

W. A. Blue_ 3.500 

O. D. Bonds (colored)_ 146.5 

Broadfoot & Broadfoot_ 100 

Malcolm Brown (colored)- 146.5 

Annie E. Cameron_ 373 

Annie E. Cameron and Mary 

S. Blue_ 521.5 

I >o_ 2, 500 

Will Cotton_ 50 

M. Covington and Amelia 

McLendon_ 425 

J. W. Crossland_ 33} 

J. W. Currie and II. B. 

Whitley_ 469 

Sam Dupree_ 118. 5 

Sy Dupree (colored)- 150 

Henry Ellison_ 50 

Til lie'Faulk_ 25 

E. W. Gillespie_ 100 

Welcome Handon_ 230 

Rev. Josh Handon_ 169 

Lucy Ellen Hatcher- 205 

W. H. Holiday_ 50 

Lavinia Hollingsworth- 100 

Sandy Jones- 34. 5 

J. E. Latham_ 703 

Do_ 812 

J. B. D. Lindsey_ 93 

Alex McDougald (Home)— 240 

Alex McDougald (Lutterloh) 200 
Alex. McDuffie estate_ 120 


Acres. 

John F. McFayden_ 639.1 

Do_ 600 

Do_ 800 

A. D. McGill_ 2,405 

John F. McNair_ 400 

Sarah McGougan_ 321 

Ellen U. McKeithan_ 365 

J. W. McLaughlin_ 800 

Do_ 200 

Do_ 930. 8 

A. E. McLean_ 666 

D. A. McPhail—_ 265 

W. A. Malachi_ 49} 

Missionary Baptist Church, 

Fractional acre 

E. M. Monroe_ 155 

C. A. Monroe_ 155 

Wiley Oliver (colored)_ 150 

Dr. Geo. B. Patterson_ 283. 5 

Charles Raleigh_ 125 

Duncan J. Ray estate_ 320 

D. H. Ray estate, Isabella 

Ray _ 575 

W. H. Ray_ 50 

York Rogers_ 150 

John H. Rogers_ 2, 780 

Maggie Sikes_ 1, 000 

E. S. Smith_ 268 

John Townsend_ 250 

S. B. Townsend_ 221 

Anna Townsend_ 415 

Edgar R. Townsend_ 425 

Ida T. Turner_ 296 














































































































96 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS, 


1 . 


3. 

4. 

5. 

6 . 

7. 

8 . 

9. 

10 . 

11 . 

12 . 

13. 

14. 

15. 

16. 

17. 

18. 

19. 

20 . 
21 . 
22 . 

23. 

24. 

25. 

26. 

27. 

28. 

29. 

30. 

31. 


32. 

33. 

34. 

35. 

36. 

37. 

38. 

39. 

40. 

41. 

42. 

43. 

44. 

45. 

46. 

47. 

48. 

49. 

50. 

51. 


List of owners and acreage. 


O. A. Waddell_- 

Carolina Light & Power 

Co__ 

O. A. Waddell_ 

D. A. Monroe_ 

O. A. Waddell_ 

O. A. Waddell_ 

O. A. Waddell_ 

D. M. Fairley_ 

Issac Murchison_ 

Fannie R. and Charles 

H. Clark___ 

D. M. Fairley_ 

D. M. Fairley_ 

Fred Monroe_ 

Amos Carter_ 

N. W. Ray_ 

Fannie R. and Charles 

H. Clark_ 

Fannie R. and Charles 

H. Clark_ 

Harry Johnson__ 

Amos Carter_ 

S. E. Hart_ 

Sam Murchison._i_ 

D. M. Fairley_ 

Fred and James Mon¬ 
roe_ 

J. C. Lee_ 

A. D. McKenzie_ 

John F. Clark and wife, 

Emma D. Clark_ 

Flora Ray___ 

W. L. King_ 

J. R. Murchison_ 

Kent Jordan & Co_ 

Martin Williams, J. A. 
McLean, Cupid Mc¬ 
Lean, Daniel McLean, 

Alfred Jackson_ 

W. H. Marsh_ 

W. H. Marsh and T. 

J. Purdy_ 

W. H. Marsh and T. 

J. Purdy_ 

Annie V. Graham_ 

W. H. Marsh and T. 

J. Purdy_ 

John A. and Ollie Vick 

Livingston_ 

Joshua W. Cannon_ 

Millie Clark Bowles_ 

Mary Kivett_1 

Mary Kivett_J 

S. W. Cooper_ 

J. J. Powers_ 

J. E. Raynor_ 

J. E. Raynor_ 

Mary Carver_ 

J. E. Raynor___ 

J. E. Raynor_ 

S. W. Cooper___ 

S. W. Cooper_ 

J. W. and R. S. Moore_ 


Acres. 
2. 5 


25 

5 

28 

55 

1.4 

3.6 

50 

750 

45 

150 

80 

50 

50 

70 


90 


50 

20 

80 

27 

50 

100 

65 

75 

100 

175 

5 

10 

140 

1,706 


50 

272 

30 

19 

107 


58. 8 

50 

210 

320 

294 


15 

54 

75 

50 

10 

48 

4 

66.7 

270 

303 


52. Malanthon Lee_ 

53. W. G. Davis and wil 

E. C. Davis_ 

54. Alfred McKethan_ 

55. S. W. Cooper_ 

56. H. McN. Ray_ 

57. Joshua W. Cannon_ 

58. W. E. Raynor_ 

59. S. W.. Cooper_ 

60. S. W. Cooper_ 

61. K. R. Raynor_ 

62. S. W. Cooper_ 

63. S. W. Cooper_ 

64. S. W. Cooper_ 

65. S. W. Cooper_ 

66. Lacey McArthur_ 

67. Lacey McArthur_ 

68. Walter L. Holt_ 

69. S. W. Cooper_ 

70. Ellen Manuel_ 

71. Z. D. Jackson_ 

72. J. W. and R. S. Moor 

73. T. J. Purdy and R. ' 

Evans_ 

74. Vance Blanton_ 

75. Walter L. Holt_ 

76. Walter L. Holt_ 

77. Walter L. Holt_ 

1. R. T. Ozment_ 

2. T. J. Purdy and R. B. 


Evans_*_ 90v 6 

3. James McPherson_ 22 

4. M. N. Pearson_ 80. 5 

5. J. W. and R. S. Moore_ 548 

6. Z. D. Jackson_ 39.5 

7. Mary G. McKay_ 18.4 

8. Heffor McKay_ 19.3 

9. W. H. Powell_ 99 

10. I. G. McDonald_ 8 

11. L. McNeill Cornish_ 14 

12. W. M. Miller_ 25 

13. Charles Thomas_ 16 

14. R. Kelley_ 3 

15. Alexander McLaughlin_ 12. 4 

16. Friendship Church_ 5. 3 

17. E. F. Wrasbury_ 23 

18. George McKay_ 23 

19. J. M. Hester_ 6 

20. J. M. Hester_ 10 

21. J. T. Ray_ 21 

22. James McGardner_ 10 

23. E. F. Wrasbury_ 47 

24. Mary C. McKay_ 5.3 

25. Ellen Manuel_ 6.5 

26. Nora Hollingsworth_ 15 

27. Leslie McKay_ 15 

28. Virgil Monroe_ 16. 5 

29. David Johnson_ 29 

30. Peter King_ 27. 6 

31. Kent Jordan_ 21 

32. W. C. Dicks_ 217 

33. Connelia Dicks_ 77. 3 

34. Catherine Harrington_ 9. 2 

35. Stepney Monroe_ 6 


Acres. 

100 


e_ 

B. 


11 

5 

6 8 
8 

15. 2 
25 
3. 4 
6. 4 
15. 7 
29. 5 
70 
70 
21 

96. 5 

27 

32 

45 

100 

160 

72 

70 

72 

13 8 












































































































97 


LAND LOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Acres. 

36. Henry Monroe_ 12 

37. Whit Monroe_ 22. 3 

38. Henry Hollingsworth_ 73 

39. Kent Jordan_ 36. 5 

40. James McDonald._ 39. 5 

41. Virgil Monroe_ 28 

42. Aron McDonald_ 33 

43. Isaac G. McDonald_ 37. 3 

44. S. D. McKay_ 9.2 

45. John A. Austin_ 16 

46. William H. McDonald ___ 22 

47. Barbarv or Hiram Ray_ 33 

48. R. Brooks_ 4 

49. Mary McKay_ 51 


Acres 

50. Eugene Watson_ 47. 8 

51. John McDougold_ 2. 7 

52. R. C. Rogers_ 129.7 

53. L. A. Fillyaw_ 121.2 

54. New Hope School lot_ 2 

55. H. Flu slim an_ 1. 8 

56. Jarvis Harris_ 45 

57. H. Flushman_ 70 

58. Mclllwinen_ 

59. .T. S„ and E. J., and J. F. 

Ellis_ 23 

60. McDuffie_ 8 

61. John W. Ellis_ 6 


Property on river. 


No. 

Owner. 

Acreage. 

Deed. 

Camp. 

1 

Vance Blanton. 


99.6 

2 

R. Ozment. 

13.8 

12.8 

3 

Me Pherson. 


21.5 

4 

Purdy and Evans. 


123.4 

5 

M. N. Pearson . 


81.0 

6 

J. W. and R. S. Moore. 


468.0 

7 

Wm. Miller. 

25 

29.3 

8 

S. McNeill Cornish. 

15 

14.0 

9 

Isaac McDonald. 

10 

8.0 

10 

Clifton McKav. 

10 

13.0 

11 

Alex Buie . 


12.6 

12 

Friendship Presbyterian 




Church . 


4.8 

13 

M. E. Wrasburv. 

25 

27.0 

14 

Estate of Geo. McKay. 

25 

23.1 

15 

Chas. Thomas. 

21? 

18.3 

16 

Beulah Missionary Baptist 




Church. 

1 

. 7 

17 

M. E. Wrasburv. 

50 

48.5 

18 

J. T. Ray. 

21 

20.2 

19 

J AT He«ter 

135 

117.8 

20 

James Me Gardiner. 

10 

10.1 

21 

Wm. H. McDonald. 

23.5 

21.2 

22 

Janie McKay. 

17.25 

16 3 

23 

Nora Hollingsworth et al.... 


15.2 

24 

Alary J. Ale Kay. 


17.1 

?*> 

Hector McKav. 


18.8 

26 

Alary .T. AToKav_ 


18.8 

27 

Z D. Jackson . 


36.1 

28 

F.llen Abvnvel 


7.8 

29 

Virgil Alonroe . 


17.5 

30 

Emiline Williams. 

32 

30.1 

31 

Estate of James McDonald.. 

39.25 

38.0 

32 

S. D. AIcKav. 

10 

8.3 

33 

Aaron McDonald. 

30. 25 

33.5 

34 

Isaac G. AIcDonald. 

41 

37.3 

35 

Jno. A. Alston. 

13-yV 

16.8 

36 

Sophia AlcDougald. 

2 

2.8 

37 

Barbarv Rav. 

44 

32. 7 

38 

R. Brooks. 

6 

3.2 

39 

New Hope School. 


1.6 

40 

Cumberland Seventh Dav 




Baptist Church. 

2.86 

2.53 

41 

Eugene Watson. 

44 

42.1 

42 

Alary A. Ale Kay. 

50 

52. 4 

43 

T. J. Harris. 

5U 

42.1 

44 

H Fleishman. . 


2.0 

45 

R. C. Rogers. 

138 

131.6 

46 

H. Fleishman. 

! 7R 

68.5 

47 

Simon AlcKay. 

6.1 

8.0 

48 

R. H. Fillyaw. 

5 

5.0 

49 

U AT Fillyaw 


32.9 

50 

R. Kelley.'. 

5 

3.7 


T, \ Fillyaw. 


447.4 

52 

AToTllwinen . 


447.4 

53 

.1. S.,E. .T., and J. E. Ellis... 

23.1 

23.5 

54 

.1. H. Ray. 

7. 25 

7.4 

55 

J. W. Ellis. 


] 5.1 


No. 

Owner. 

Acreage. 

Deed. 

Camp. 

56 

Sheppard and McOougan... 

759 

696.0 

57 

Dora AA r hitehead Goins. 


96.6 

58 

FmiL P. Newton. 

124 

116.0 

59 

Henrv Whitehead. 

117 

85.0 


Honr- Whitehead. 

118 

93.0 

60 

P. C. Newton. 

76 

98.0 

61 

D. N. Newton. 

72 

72.6 

62 

D. N. Newton. 

76.5 

78.0 

] 63 

D. K. Mints. 

107 

110.0 


D. K. Mints. 

255 

249.0 

64 

Jesse cillis. 

10 

10.1 

65 

Jane Gillis. 

10 

8.7 

t 66 

Henrv Alonroe. 

10 

11.0 

67 

Stepney Alonroe. 

5 

4.4 

! 68 

\\ r hit Monroe. 

13. 5 

6.7 

69 

AVhit Alonroe. 

19.5 

26.5 

70 

Henrv Hollingsworth. 

74 

75. 9 

71 

| 

Kent Jordan. 

Kent Jordan. 

35.5 

34.7 

18.6 

1 72 

D. W. Johnson. 


27.6 

73 

Katherine Harrington. 

10 

9.7 

: 74 

St°adman. 


25.5 

i 75 
76 

Cornelia Dicks... 

AY.C.Dicks, Henrietta Dicks 

64 

75.2 


(plat, will not fit). 

142 

208.8 

77 

D. II. Rav. 

157 

113.0 

78 

Kent Jordan. 

214 

196. 0 

79 

Arch. McDougald. 

39 

39.7 

80 

Mary McDougald. 

5 

5.0 

81 

Alice AfcGill. 

50 

42.1 

82 

,T. W. Chavis estate. 

50 

35.5 

83 

Alex I insap. 


66.6 

84 

Henrv AIcNeill. 

37.5 

48.3 

.85 

Christian McPhail. 


158.0 

86 

Nelia Ritter. 

30 

i 49.5 


Nelia Ritter. 

100 

102.4 

87 

Afacrgie Hadlev. 

20 

18.9 

88 

Odom and Spears (1 tract).. 


140.8 

89 

Gentrv and Rozier. 


309.8 

90 

J. W. Adams et al. 

342. 35 

295.8 

91 

Charles Thomas. 

220 

225.2 

92 

Charles Thomas. 

60 

50.8 

93 

Archie AlcKay. 

35 

34.5 

94 

Alack Shaw. 

82 

83.3 

95 

AYilliam James Ritter. 

50 

49.5 

96 

J. AV. Fllis (2 tracts). 

112.7 

120.0 

97 

Daniel Me" can estate. 

10 

9.4 

98 

Ceorge Knight. 

20 

16. 3 

99 

100 

101 

Sheppard and McGougan... 
Neill Buie 

118 

108.0 

Sarah .T. Alclntvre. 

131.5 

125. 4 

102 

H. C. McNeill. 

144.5 

148.5 

103 

T. A . Clark. 

105. S6 

114.0 

104 

N. D. Al. Clark. 

238 

247.7 

105 

Tom Cameron. 

8 

6.2 

106 

Fannie McAIillan. 

5 

4.6 

107 

1 108 

Aloses Whitehead. 

25 

26. 0 

S. J. AA r eathers. 

61 

72.2 


99137—19-7 







































































































































































98 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Property on river —Continued. 


No. 

Owner. 

Acreage. 

Deed. 

Camp. 

109 

Pelphia A. and Francis G. 




Chavis. 

73 

85.2 

110 

Edmund Chavis estate. 

140 

120.5 

111 

J. O. D. Kin?. 


85.0 

112 

113 

J. F. and I. S. McFadyon... 
Kent Jordan. 

168 

190.9 , 

114 

J. F. McArthur estate. 

50 

49.5 

115 

B. L. and C. F. Anders. 

77.0 

86.3 

116 

John K. Rav estate. 

526 

533. 0 

117 

Kent Jordan. 


785.7 

118 

D. K. Howard. 


134.6 

119 

R. Y. Howard. 

43 

41.6 

120 

J. A. Howard. 


293.1 


No. 

Owner. 

Acreage. 

Deed. 

Camp. 

121 

R. P. Howard. 


120.0 

122 

D. M. Fairlev. 

70 

62.8 

123 

Kent Jordan. 

79.11 

83.3 

124 

T. H. Monroe. 

79 

70.6 

125 

J. H. Monroe. 

79 

83.7 

126 

Katherine Thompson. 

129 

102.8 

127 

128 

Amos Carter. 

Amos Carter. 

50 

1.2 

11.0 

129 

Fairley. 

100 

98.4 

130 

Fred and James Monroe. 

65 

.9 

131 

J. C. 1 ec. 

75 

43.0 

132 

J. R. Overton. 

60 

61.6 


(The data referred to by Senator Sutherland was subsequently 
submitted and is here printed in full as follows: 

Personal estimate made by Maj. J. Paul Jones, Construction Quartermaster. 


Cash expenditure_ $458, 000 

Amount obligated_ 1,107, 000 


Total spent on the job_-_ 1, 565, 000 


Cost of salvage_ 200, 000 

Value of the salvage___ 200, 000 

Total loss on construction_ 1, 565. 000 

If the land is not owned by the Government and damages will have 

to be paid, the estimated damage will be___ $1, 400, 000 

Considering the Government material now on hand within the 
radius of two hundred fifty miles which would be used in the 
construction of this camp and charged at $7,000,000, if sold at 

auction the loss would be_ 3, 500, 000 

Total loss to the Government if the project is abandoned_^ 6, 465, 000 


An estimated cost, that is new cash outlay, to continue the construc¬ 
tion of the school as originally outlined, that is for 10,000 men, 
and that Governmfent-owned material now at these other camps 
is not charged against the job, the cash outlay to complete would 
be— 

Labor and other expenses_»_ $4, 500, 000 

New material---- 1, 500, 000 


Total- 6, 000, 000 


And considering that 17,000 acres can be released from the original 
115.000 acre project, 98,000 acres of land can be acquired for 

$2,500,000, making a grand total of___ $8, 500,000 

to complete the Infantry School of Arms for 10,000 men. 

Senator New. This statement that I wish inserted in the record 
was prepared from the county records of Chattahoochee and Musco¬ 
gee Counties, t by the Chamber of Commerce of Columbus, Ga., and 
presented by the officers to the War Department. 

Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman, the total number of respondents 
to this condemnation proceeding who have accepted the view that 
the Government took the title, I want to put into the record. I 
understand it is practically all of them; that with a very small 
exception, they have accepted the procedure. 

The Chairman. Have you witnesses on that? 





























































LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


99 


Senator Smith. I will get the official record and furnish that. * 

I wanted to ask Col. Whelen, from the training committee of the 
War College, a question or two about the opinion of the War De¬ 
partment as to the necessity for conducting these schools. 

STATEMENT OF LIEUT. COL. TOWNSEND WHELEN. 

The Chairman. Please give your name, address, and tour of duty 
to the stenographer. 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. Lieut. Col. Townsend Whelen, with the 
Division of Training and Instruction Branch, General Staff. 

Senator Tiiomas. The Secretary of War stated the other day that 
the military authorities were all of an opinion that actuated them in 
going ahead. 

The Chairman. I do not think there is any question among the 
military men, that they all want it. 

Senator Smith. I want you, Colonel, to give the opinion of the 
War College as to the necessity of these four schools, there at Co¬ 
lumbus, or somewhere. 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. The training and instruction branch is of 
the opinion that these schools are a necessary part of the training 
scheme for the entire Army. If you decide that your Army shall be 
well trained* they are absolutely a necessary part. They take up the 
technical training of the use, by the whole Army, with the exception 
of military aeronautics, of small arms. The trend of modern war¬ 
fare, not only in this war, but in all wars, for the past 20 years, 
has made that training more and more technical, and it has reached 
that point now, where, if that training throughout our Army is to be 
efficient, and is to be uniform, we must have schools which will teach 
them training in correct gunnery, and we must have our young offi¬ 
cers go through those schools, so that in every company of infantry, 
troop of cavalry, in every machine gun company, and in every artil¬ 
lery regiment, we will have instructors, capable of imparting a uni¬ 
form and efficient method of using small arms in warfare. 

From our studies that we have made on this subject, it will take for 
the size army which the War Department contemplates will be neces¬ 
sary in peace time, approximately two thousand students under in¬ 
struction at all times. That will enable us to eventually have the 
great majority of the company officers instructed and to instruct the 
younger officers shortly after entering into the service. 

Senator Thomas. Personally, I think that that view is the correct 
one, but I do not understand why it is necessary to have so many of 
these camps, or why the war, having ended, it is necessary to con¬ 
tinue all the camps, both those which were in full operation at the 
time of the armistice and those which were in contemplation at the 
time. 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. This camp is a consolidation of four camps, 
that we had during the war. 

Senator Thomas. Yet the Government retains the four camps, of 
which this is a consolidation, and continues to operate them as well, 
although perhaps in some other parts of the service. 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. Fort Sill has been given over to the field 
artillery, as one of the schools for technical training in field artillery 
firing. 


100 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Thomas. Where was the field artillery training school 
before that? 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. A. part at Fort Sill and part of it was in 
Kentucky, and part in Tobyhanna. 

Senator Thomas. The Kentucky camp continues; what are you 
going to do with Tobyhanna? 

Lieut. CoJ. Whelen. I believe it continues, too. I am not pre¬ 
pared to say whether it is going to be retained for field artillery, 
but their studies show they need more than one; in fact we really 
need four or five training centers to efficiently cover the training of 
the artillery the new Army contemplates having. 

Senator Thomas. Is it not a fact that the training increases while 
the standing army decreases ? Is not that the practical result of the 
present program—the expanding of the training camps, both as to 
the number of men and number of camps, and a decrease of the 
number of men in the line ? 

Lieut, Col. Whelen. That is not so with reference to these camps. 

Senator McKellar. Are there any camps designated for abandon¬ 
ment ? 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. We have designed practically eVery tent 
camp. 

Senator McKellar. That is, for soldiers? 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. I mean for officers. 

Lieut.- Col. Whelen. Practically every tent camp for every pur¬ 
pose. 

Senator Johnson. What do you mean by “tent camp? ” 

Senator Thomas. I understand the War Department has asked 
us to arrange for the purchase of these tent camps. 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. As I understand it, the camps recommended 
for purchase are those national army cantonments where large 
number of buildings have been placed on the ground, and canton¬ 
ments which would furnish a most perfect site for the training of 
our peace-time divisions, and also where it is more expensive to get 
out of the project than it is to purchase it. We have spent a great 
deal of money on these cantonments, and many of them will furnish 
perfect training centers. 

Senator McKellar. How large an army are we to maintain in 
peace time? 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. I think that is up to this committee. 

Senator McKellar. That is what we think of it. 

Senator Thomas. I think what the Senator means is what army 
you are going to recommend. 

Senator McKellar. It looks, from the recommendations in respect 
to the training camps, etc., that we are starting in to maintain a 
very large army. I do not think we want to keep an immense 
Germanized army in this country, and we will not do it with my 
consent. 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. We have to train as many men as Congress 
decides it is necessary to train for the safety of the country. ‘ 

Senator McKellar. I do not think we had better buy the camps 
first before we make up our minds what size army we want. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


101 


Senator Sutherland. Do you think these temporary shacks built 
on the cantonment sites should be treated as permanent improve¬ 
ments ? 

Lieut. Col. Whblen. They are improvements which will enable 
us to house our Army for some years to come, at a minimum expense. 

Senator T\ adsworth. \ ou have already large investments in sewer 
systems, etc., on theses cantonment sites? 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. Is it contemplated to replace these shacks, 
etc. ? 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. Yes, sir; if you are going to maintain a 
suitable army in the future, it will be necessary to replace them in 
time. 

Senator Smith. Has not the machine-gun camp at Hancock been 
abandoned ? 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. Yes, sir; as soon as we can move the men 
down to Camp Benning. 

Senator Smith. And have not these other two schools, or camps, 
been given up or transferred to some other camps? 

Lieut. Col. Whelen. The small-arms training school has been 
transferred from Camp Curry; the infantry school has been taken 
away from Fort Sill, and that has been turned over to the field ar¬ 
tillery. 

Senator Smith. Col. Wyllie, of the General Staff, has some figures, 
I think should be put in the record. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

STATEMENT OF COL. R. E. WYLLIE. 

The Chairman. Please give your name, rank, and present tour of 
duty to the stenographer. 

Col. Wyllie. I am chief of the equipment branch of the General 
Staff. 

Senator Smith. I want you to explain to the committee the con¬ 
ditions with reference to expense at Columbus, especially with ref¬ 
erence to the cost of constructing the plant, and what further out¬ 
lay, in your opinion, in money will be necessary, and what material 
is in reach that could be economized by utilizing it there and why? 

Col. Wyllie. The estimates—this has been mentioned to-day—for 
the construction of this camp, were $14,000,000. Those estimates, 
in the first place, were based on war-time conditions, and we are 
now’—and all of our construction work as a matter of fact is 
based on economical work and not on rush v T ork such as we had 
to do during the war. That will cut down that $14,000,000 quite 
a lot. In the next place, the construction division- 

Senator Sutherland. How much will it cut it to ? 

Col. Wyllie. I would not want to say definitely. For example, 
I might sav that the railroad which is being constructed now dow’n 
there if this camp is retained, will cost about 75 per cent of the 
estimated cost. So, taking that as a basis, we cut off 25 per cent 
from the $14,000,000. 

Senator McKellar. Do you know of any camp that has been 
built for less than the estimate, either in war or peace time? 



102 


I.AND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Wyllie. No; I do not know that I do. 

Senator Smith. You do not know of any built in peace that were 
estimated in war? 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir. 

Senator McKellar. We will soon know about those. 

Col. Wyllie. The second point is, the Government now has on 
hand about $26,000,000 worth of material which had been purchased 
prior to the signing of the armistice, for construction work, which 
was then ordered, but which has been since canceled. 

Senator McKellar. Do you think we ought to construct it any¬ 
how, because we have it? If we start on that policy it will cost just 
as much to run the Army in peace time as during war times, if we 
must take care of these things. For instance, we have three million 
and a half men- 

Col. Wyllie. The salvage value of that will be nowhere near what 
would pay for it. 

Senator McKellar. If we put it into construction work and it 
cost us $14,000,000 in one place, and we have to pay that $14,000,000 
out, and make big appropriations to keep it going for time im¬ 
memorial, it would seem better to burn the $26,000,000 worth of 
lumber or get what we can for it now. 

Senator Smith. Of course, unless you need it. 

Senator McKellar. Oh ! of course. 

Senator New. You spoke of this $26,000,000 worth of material 
that the Government had purchased, and now has on hand, without 
any particular use for it, unless you go ahead with the Columbus or 
some other camp. Has the Government canceled its orders for ma¬ 
terials which were placed prior to the 11th day of November? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. Those orders have been canceled? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. About what date were they canceled? 

Col. Wyllie. That differs on the different projects. Immediately 
on the 11th of November, that very day, the question was taken up, 
and we went through all the projects, one by one, determining such 
as should be canceled and such as should be continued. Of course, 
it could not all be done in a day, but it went along for the next two 
or three weeks to a month, and we canceled practically as much as 
we could. 

Senator McKellar. Are the lumber mills anywhere delivering 
lumber to the Government? 

Col. Wyllie. I could not say. 

Senator McKellar. Could you furnish the committee any informa¬ 
tion it could put in the record on this subject? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. As you have this lumber that you can not 
use except to put in some unfinished project, would not the materials 
you use for this project still further reduce your estimate or would 
you expect to absorb this in your estimate ? 

Col. Wyllie. That would be a part of the money we estimated to 
spend on the project. 

Senator Sutherland. It was in the amount? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; part of it. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


103 


Senator Smith. He was interrupted before he finished his other 
statement. What savings can you make by utilizing this material 
at points contiguous to this point, in Montgomery, Atlanta, Au¬ 
gusta, and Greenville, S. C., and points around there? 

Col. Wyllie. The only material which would have to be purchased, 
which the Government does not now possess, would be metal lathing, 
which would be a few hundred thousand dollars. All of the remain¬ 
ing material is on hand. 

Senator McKellar. Are you building anywhere else? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir: at some places. 

Senator McKellar. Where? 

Col. Wyllie. Fayetteville, N. C., West Point, Ky.—well, there 
are some few small things going up elsewhere. Those are the only 
two things of importance. 

Senator Sutherland. To what extent would that reduce the ac¬ 
tual expenditures to on this project? 

Col. Wyllie. It keeps it down to the question of labor only. We 
estimate the labor would cost $4,000,000. 

Senator Sutherland. That would be the total amount involved, 
then, of new money on this project, if you completed it according 
to your present plans? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. Including freight, etc., on this material? 

Col. AYyllie. From five to five and a half million dollars, possibly 
six million. The lumber is in camps, within 200 or 250 miles of 
Columbus, at Camp McClelland, at Anniston, and Greenville, Au¬ 
gusta, and Atlanta. 

Senator McKellar. Why was this large amount of lumber pur¬ 
chased at this period? 

Col. Wyllie. We were extending those camps. 

Senator Thomas. Due to the second draft? 

Col. Wyllie. Due to the draft which was coming in this winter. 

Senator Smith. If you erected a school of arms, or a school cover¬ 
ing what it is said we need—a school of arms, small firing arms, ma¬ 
chine-gun training, and tanks—and handled them all at one place, 
would it be economical to handle them all at one place? 

Col. Wyllie. It would be much more economical to handle them 
at one place because of the overhead required for maintenance. It 
simply mieans the overhead for one school instead of four. 

Senator McKellar. How could that be, if you are to continue the 
other four schools. I can understand how there might be some sav¬ 
ing in this particular department, but if you are going to main¬ 
tain those ^schools elsewhere and build this additional school at 
$ 14 , 000 , 000 . I do not understand how you can save. 

Col. Wyllie. We are not going to run the other schools. 

Senator McKellar. You still have overhead at the others. 

Col. AYyllie. No, sir; we are abandoning two schools, one of them 
the machine-gun school at Augusta, the other the tank school at 
Raleigh. 

Senator McKellar. There will not be any cantonment at those 
places ? 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir. 

Senator New. How long ago was the machine gun school estab¬ 
lished at Augusta? 


104 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

Col. Wyllie. At the beginning of the war—it was one of the 
National Guard camps. 

Senator Johnson. May I express one thought that occurs to me? 
As I listen to this testimony, it appears to me we are putting the 
cart before the horse in determining as to specific individual camps. 
Is it not wiser for us to decide what our military establishment is 
going to be, whether we are going to proceed with universal train¬ 
ing and the like, and learn exactly and scientifically what will be 
required for the military establishment we expect to have in time 
of peace in this country? Otherwise, we are going to be in the 
situation of having all of these various camps, and all of these vari¬ 
ous schools in one form or another maintained, because the argument 
for each is quite persuasive, but, if we went at the matter as if we 
were going at some business concern, or the building of some par¬ 
ticular constructive plan, would not we at once determine on our 
military establishment, what army in peace we are going to have,, 
and how we are going to train it, what we are going to do, and 
then decide upon what expenditures are to be made in its behalf 
and determine those expenditures with accuracy and decision? 

The Chairman. I have been hoping that the War Department 
would send us some plan, worked out by the General Staff or War 
Department itself, that will do just what you suggest, but nothing" 
has come from them, and if the Military Affairs Committee- 

Senator New. I will say in that connection that I was informed 
by what I consider absolutely correct authority, the first of De¬ 
cember, that a plan coming from the War Department authorita¬ 
tively would be in the hands of this committee before the end of 
the month of December. 

The Chairman. It has worked out that it has not been submitted 
to the Chairman. If it has been submitted to any member of the 
Committee, the Chairman has not been advised of it. 

Senator McKellar. I endorse everything that Senator Johnson 
has said. It seems to me it is exceedingly extravagant and futile 
to decide these matters in advance of the expected plans from the 
War Department. I think the War Department should be asked 
to submit such a plan. 

Senator Sutherland. Let us know whether such a plan has been 
prepared by the General Staff. 

Col. Wyllie. I do not know, sir. 

Senator Thomas. I agree with Senator Johnson also, but for 
the purpose of this hearing, I think we should hear these witnesses. 

Senator Johnson. I do not want to interrupt the hearing, but 
in connection with the nebulous ideas concerning the demobiliza¬ 
tion of the troops, and the maintenance of these cantonments in 
this country, I wished to make that observation. It is impossible 
for us to know what is to be done with men in service, who went 
in service for the war on Germany, and are in service in this coun¬ 
try. We should know that with absolute accuracjL 

Senator Smith. Now, Colonel, if you locate a small-arms firing 
school, a machine-gun training school, and tanks anywhere in the 
country, would not this $10,000,000 cost be upon you for the erec¬ 
tion of suitable buildings? 

Col. Wyllie. Unless you disposed of something else that is as nec¬ 
essary as this. 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


105 


Senator Smith. Is there any other place where you could with 
greater economy use this material you have on hand? 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir. 

Senator Smith. Is it not, to a considerable extent, centrally lo¬ 
cated with reference to it ? 

Col. Wyllie. It is central to most of these places at which we 
have this material. 

Senator Smith. The use of that material will bring d°wn your 
expense in round numbers practically one-half of the estimated 
cost of construction? 

Col. Wyllie. That is, approximately. 

Senator Smith. If that material were allowed to go out and be 
scrapped, and junked, and disposed of, and salvaged, and you 
wanted to buy material again for such a construction, you w T ould 
have that loss? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. You were designated by Gen. March as one of 
the officers of the staff to come here? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. And these other officers were ? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; all of them. 

STATEMENT OE MR. FRANK HUGH GARRARD. 

The Chairman. Please give the stenographer your name, residence, 
and occupation ? 

Mr. G arrard. Frank Hugh Garrard, Columbus, Ga. I am the at¬ 
torney for 40,262 acres of land which are in this military reservation 
out of the 155,000 acres involved. I should say there are 33,741 acres 
of that land where the property owmers have answered in the con¬ 
demnation proceedings, admitting the allegations for the bill and 
admitting that the Government has alreadj 7 acquired title and gone 
into the possession of their land. There are 6.521 acres where the 
answer has not been filed and the parties have not been served. 

The Chairman. These have appeared in tne condemnation pro¬ 
ceedings ? 

Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And have alleged the value of their particular 
holdings ? 

Mr. Garrard. Yes. sir. 

The Chairman. Has the Government joined issue with them on the 
value ? 

Mr. Garrard. There has been no appraiser appointed for that 
raluation. I will say that the bill which was filed on November 2, 
that it was to appear on January 4. They filed their answers at that 
time. The Government land agents have been going along and making 
trades with these peoples for the property. I have the information 
that there is over 28,000 acres of ground whereby they have actually 
agreed on the valuation at a cost in round numbers, of something like 
$750,000. That part is w T here the Government authorities and the 
land owners have agreed as to the price and there is a contract be¬ 
tween them. They have agreed on those values. In the condemnation 
proceedings, where these answers were filed, the valuations have not 
been agreed upon. These parties would probably have agreed with 


106 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


the Government agents from the land department but under the 
terms of this bill they had to file answers to keep from being in de¬ 
fault, on January 4. 

Senator Smith. There has been no failure to agree ? 

Mr. Garrard. No, sir; it is not a question of agreeing on the values, 
but on account of the large number of acres, it has been slow in 
handling those valuations and getting the appraisals all made. 

Senator Smith. The Government agents have not themselves ar¬ 
rived at an estimate of what they are willing to give ? 

Mr. Garrard. That is exactly true. 

Senator Smith. Now, Mr. Garrard, these answers concede title in 
the Government, and simply take steps to proceed with fixing the 
values. That is the situation ? 

Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir; that is true. Now, I want to say that of 
these people who are in the reservation, they were ordered to move 
from that reservation by printed notice and by individual service. 
A great many of those people have moved away. A great many of 
them are very small holders, and they have made other purchases, 
and they can not go back and take charge of these farms which they 
have abandoned, on account of the labor situation, and be able to get 
them back in the same position that they were in, in a great many 
years. Their labor was their greatest asset. That has been abso¬ 
lutely overthrown, and they have gone into other places. My clients 
contend that when the condemnation proceedings were filed and the 
Government went in control of this land, they acquired title by filing 
the condemnation proceedings, and the question of payment was a 
mere detail either through agreement with the arbitrators or agree¬ 
ment with this committee. 

I will say, when the answers are filed, an appraiser is suggested by 
the landowner, and, under our Georgia law, the Government ap¬ 
points an agent, and in the event there can not be any agreement be¬ 
tween them, then the question would be brought before a jury for 
determination. The proceedings would be filed in the United States 
court but the Georgia statutes would prevail as to the manner of the 
condemnation under the act. 

Senator Thomas. When does the Georgia court hold the title to 
pass—at the time it is taken or with the award? 

Mr. Garrard. I will state, that on this particular matter, there 
has never been a Georgia case. There is no decision on that. 

Senator Thomas. But you have Georgia cases under the State 
law that have gone to the Supreme Court? 

Senator McKellar. When does it ordinarily pass? 

Mr. Garrard. Ordinarily, the title would pass with the award. In 
the case of a corporation exercising the power of eminent domain, 
it would pass with the award, but in this case, with the specific act 
passed, that they are operating under now, the contention is—I 
will state what is my opinion—that it would be from the filing of 
the condemnation bill, but the courts have not passed upon it. 

Senator Thomas. As attorney for these people, you have examined 
that matter? 

Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir. 

Senator Thomas. And that is your opinion? 

Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


107 


Senator Smith. What proportion of these people have gone out 
and created liabilities under contracts which they can only meet 
by the Government taking their land and paying them? 

Mr. Garrard. In answer to that question, my answer would have 
to be purely a question of estimate, but I would say that 75 per cent 
of the people in that total area have already made arrangements 
as to where they would move. For instance, on December 1, when 
the first rifle range was established, it happened to be in a thickly 
settled part, and those people have had to move, and they have 
yielded possession of their property, and have moved off entirely. 
Some of the others had until February 1 to move, but the question 
of their moving—most of them are farmers—they had to move prior 
to January 1 for the reason that if they did not start their moving 
now they will lose next year’s crop, and for that reason they have 
been probably faster in moving than they would have been if given 
more time. 

Senator Smith. Having made these moves and purchased or 
rented and completed their other arrangements, is it possible for them 
to go back to this land ? 

Mr. Garrard. It is not. 

Senator McKellar. There are a great many who have not been 
notified to move or who would not move untii the 1st of March or 
February 1? 

Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir; some the 1st of March and some the 1st 
of April and some the 1st of February, according to how they 
would get the shooting ranges fixed. 

Senator McKellar. You do not know how many in Chattahoochee 
have moved out? 

Mr. Garrard. In answer to that question, one of the gentlemen 
that lived in the Chattahoochee section, in Chattahoochee County— 
in one particular section—I asked him if he could give me the 
names and percentage of the people who had already moved and he 
said 95 per cent of the people in his neighborhood had vacated and 
given possession of their land to the Government. 

Senator Smith. You were asked if this notice did not run until 
February or March or April 1. While that was true, as they had to 
leave, was it not necessary for the farmers to go at once to make 
their other arrangements? 

Mr. Garrard. Absolutely. A great many of them who probably 
had until April 1 did move because if they did not they would 
have lost their crop this year. 

Senator Smith. Were there not a great many small farmers on 
that ground—100-acre men? 

Mr. Garrard. There are a great many of those very small farmers 
in that territory who absolutely, to use a common expression, were 
up in the air as to what to do. They received their notice to move 
and have gone out and purchased in Alabama, and other portions 
of Muscogee and Chattahoochee Counties, and have left there for 
the reason that they could not remain there any longer. Those 
people are not able to finance themselves. They have gone to work 
and bought their property on a credit basis, and the hardship on 
them would certainly be very great in the event that they, at this 
time, were even given their lands back, for the reason they have 


108 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


lost what labor they had, and in addition to that, in a great many 
instances, they have sacrificed their live stock. 

Senator McKellar. Assuming that to be correct, would it not 
be very much to the advantage of your county and to your State— 
the portion of your State in that county—if the Government is 
not going to build a cantonment there—would it not be better for 
the Government to pay to the people, let us say, how much you 
have lost? We want to make not only full but ample reparation 
for losses, taking into consideration all such labor losses, etc., and 
let them have their lands back, in addition,, and would it not be very 
much better than for the Government to take over the land and 
move everybody out of them, and then abandon it and leave it there 
without the power vested in the county to tax it? 

Mr. Garrard. In answer to that question, I will answer that as 
chairman of the board of county commissioners of my county— 
1 happen to hold that position. I wfill state that in Muscogee County, 
if every one of these people who were in this area, which possibly 
would be an area covering about 40 per cent of the county, that the 
county would be very much better off for the cantonment to go on 
than it would be to leave these people in there, because there are 
other corresponding benefits which the county would derive. 

Senator McKellar. But suppose the cantonment is not built. I 
am assuming it is not going to be built. Would it not be better for 
your county to keep the people there than to make them go to 
Alabama or some other State, and make them full reparation? I 
think we ought not to be niggardly about it, and that we should 
make them whole in every way in the world, and would it not be 
better for the county and these people—certainly those who have 
not left the land—to receive the land back? Would it not be better 
for the county and your State and the people ? 

Mr. Garrard. Of course, if the Government takes the land over 
there would be no taxes derived by the county. 

Senator McKellar. In the event the Government took over the 
property, the Government would have an idle domain and the 
county would have a blot on its industrial and farming industries. 

Mr. Garrard. There would be some vacant land unless the Govern¬ 
ment should use it. 

Senator Thomas. In your county would the area involved in this 
proposed cantonment be 40 per cent of the area of the county, or is 44) 
per cent of the reservation in your county ? 

Mr. Garrard. About 40 per cent of the area of the county. 

Senator McKellar. Then, that would leave 60 per cenjt in Chatta¬ 
hoochee ? 

Mr. Garrard. Between 50 and 60 per cent would be in Chatta¬ 
hoochee County. 

Senator McKellar. If the Government is forced to take these 
lands over at a price agreed upon by a jury—that is what it means 
a jury litigation—nobody knows it better than you and I, because we 
have both had these cases many times—the Government comes along 
and takes it over and moves the people out; the Government has no 
use for the land; the families on the land have moveji out of the 
county and your county has lost that much, and the county has lost 
that much taxable land. Now, would it not be better if the Govern¬ 
ment, instead of taking over this land and getting the people off of 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


109 


the land, would give them full reparation and let them keep the lands, 
and you keep the people in your counties? 

Mr. Garrard. I should say, if the Government was simply going 
to take it over and leave it vacant, it would be better for the county, 
but we are assuming that the school would be built and go on and be 
used for the purposes for which it was condemned. 

The Chairman. If there is nothing further we will call Mr. Minter. 

STATEMENT OF MR. C. 0. MINTER. 

The Chairman. Please state your full name, residence, and occupa¬ 
tion to the stenographer. 

Mr. Minter. C. C. Minter. I reside at Cusseta, Ga. 

The Chairman. What is your business? 

Mr. Minter. Well, I am an attorney and farmer. I have farming 
interests. 

The Chairman. Within this proposed military reservation? 

Mr. Minter. I have a small amount of land in this military reser¬ 
vation that I am not particularly interested in; I am representing my 
•county of 8,000 rural population. 

The Chairman. Are there any large towns in that county? 

Mr. Minter. Cusseta, the county seat, is the only large community. 

The Chairman. Do you represent anybody in these proceedings? 

Mr. Minter. I represent about 98 per cent of the population. 

The Chairman. You also represent, as paid counsel, some of these 
people ? 

Mr. Minter. I also represent some of these people, without fee. 
They are defraying my expenses only. 

Senator McKellar. Do they want those lands taken over? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Do you represent the county commissioners of 
Chattahoochee? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir: and the rural population of both counties. 

Senator McKellar. You mean the population within the military 
zone? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Ninety-eight per cent of them. 

Mr. Minter. Ninety-eight per cent of them are opposed to this 
camp. 

Senator Thomas. The other 2 per cent must be here. 

Mr. Minter. The other 2 per cent are representing the city of 
Columbus, and those represent the city of Columbus and the cham¬ 
ber of commerce. The county of Chattahoochee, from which I come, 
has 165,000 acres total area. They are taking 72,000 acres of the 
landed area. It has 5,537 population. They are taking 3,300 of the 
population within this camp zone. It has a taxable value on the tax 
digest of $2,000,000—that is, the part in Chattachoochee. I am divid¬ 
ing it by counties. The entire county has a taxable value of $2,000,- 
000 on the tax digest. That is, of course, a very low valuation. There 
is $1,300,000 of that $2,000,000 within the camp zone in Chattahoo¬ 
chee County. 

Senator McKellar. That leaves you $700,000 of taxable value for 
the entire county? 


110 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the camp zone runs within half a mile of 
the county seat and zigzags around on three sides. 

Senator Thomas. Do they leave you the county seat ? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, the county seat. That is about all. Now, I 
have made it a personal matter to find out how many of the land- 
owners and home-owners, and residents, living on the farms, have 
left their farms. Two have left. I could call those by name. 

Senator McKellar. White or black? 

Mr. Minter. There are some Negro tenants that have moved out. 
Now, as to how many of those who have moved I do not know—and 
a few white tenants have left. I am speaking only of the land- 
owners. 

Senator McKellar. Two landowners have moved out? 

Mr. Minter. Only two. 

Senator Thomas. Is the bulk of the population a tenantry, or free¬ 
holders ? 

Mr. Minter. About half and half. Those that want to sell are 
mostly those that do not live on the land. Many of them do not live 
even m the county. Those that own land in our county that want 
to sell, live in the city of Columbus. Our people do not want to sell 
at any price—it means almost the annihiliation of Chattahoochee 
County. 

That is true of the 50,000 acres they have taken from Muscogee 
County. There is one of the farmers from Muscogee County, rep¬ 
resenting that end of it, with myself. We were selected by various 
mass meetings held in these rural districts, largely attended. 

Senator McKellar. Now that the war is over, you gentlemen want 
to go back to work? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; we want to see things settled definitely. I 
happen to represent some of those that Mr. Garrard spoke of as hav¬ 
ing filed answers for. One, particularly, has 7,000 acres of land. He 
does not want to sell at any price. 

Senator McKellar. Who is it? 

Mr. Minter. Mr. Weems. Has Mr. Van Horn’s answer been filed? 

Mr. Garrard. It has. 

Mr. Minter. Mr. Van Horn has also contributed to my expenses 
in coming here. They will not ask the Government for any remu¬ 
neration. They do not want to sell it for any price. As to damages, 
there has been sustained a little damage on some farms. Mr. Bus¬ 
sey, at which the camp is immediately located, has the most beauti¬ 
ful country home in the State. 

Senator McKellar. They did not put the rifle range in his home. 

Mr. Minter. They have the range right at his home. If the Gov¬ 
ernment purchased those farms, it would cost them an average of 
$100 an acre. That would be cheap. There are many of them 
worth twice that much. Of course, there are some cheap tracts that 
would bring the average down. 

Senator McKellar. Do you have condemnation proceedings in 
Georgia in which you could get these matters put through in two or 
three weeks? • 

Mr. Minter. No, sir. 

Senator McKellar. The same rule applies there as generally ? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Ill 


Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Now, there is only about one-fourth or 
one-fifth of these property owners who have been served. I have 
a copy of the notice with me. 

Senator Sutherland. When were they served? 

Mr. Minter. Some time in December—possibly in the early part 
of December. 

Senator Sutherland. All since the armistice has been signed? 

Mr*. Minter. All since the armistice has been signed 

Senator Sutherland. How many were served before the armi¬ 
stice ? 

Mr. Minter. I do not think any were served. In fact, no op¬ 
position would have sprung up at all if the armistice had not been 
signed. 

Senator McKellar. Mr. Crowell, have actual condemnation pro¬ 
ceedings been filed in other cases than this? Have you had re¬ 
course to condemnations in other cases? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think so. 

Senator McKellar. I do not mean amounts paid, but I want 
to know if court proceedings have been instituted at other camps 
generally like this. This seems, from my reading of it, a blanket 
bill to condemn all lands alleged to be needed by the Government. 
So far as anything I know of, no other proceeding like that, in 
other camps, has been filed, and I was wondering if there was a 
parallel case; and, if not, why was this proceeding started in this 
case ? 

Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can not give you the details. 

The Chairman. Let us confine ourselves to this case, Senator. 

Senator McKellar. This applies directly to it. 

The Chairman. You can proceed, Mr. Minter, with your testi¬ 
mony. 

Mr. Minter. As to the beginning, or the history of this camp, 
in the beginning of the efforts to get a camp at Columbus, they 
first located it entirely in the county of Muscogee, but they finally 
abandoned that and came to Chattahoochee, just about the middle 
of October, and began operations there. 

Now, in my opinion, from two to three hundred thousand dollars 
will cover the damages that have been done to everybody. 

Senator McKellar. In your county? 

Mr. Minter. In my county and in Muscogee, and would pay them 
liberally. There are only a few people who have been actually 
damaged, whose property has been torn up. Mr. Arthur Bussey is 
perhaps the largest one, and a few others, where they have gone 
through with the railroad. 

Senator McKellar. Do you represent a great many of them? 

Mr. Minter. I represent practically the entire population of the 
camp zone—at least 98 per cent. In my county they have agreed 
with only three men who own land, on values. There are about 150 
property owners in my county within this camp zone, and they have 
succeeded in three months’ time in agreeing with about three that 
live on their farms. 

Senator Thomas. If I understand you correctly, Mr. Minter, those 
who advocate the location of the camp, are the urban population 
of the city of Columbus? 


112 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

Senator McKellar. Or nonresident landowners. 

Senator Thomas. And the farming section of the two counties, 
by an overwhelming majority, are opposed? 

Mr. Minter. Practically unanimously. 

The Chairman. Are you positive of that? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I am sure. 

The Chairman. Because there has been testimony so in conflict 
with your testimony as to the number of farmers that have moved off. 

Mr. Minter. I have been in closer touch, probably, than any other 
man who has testified, because myself and a few others are the only 
ones that have represented them and we have canvassed the situation 
in the entire territory. 

The Chairman. Have you met the individuals who owned the 
land? 

Mr. Minter. I have seen the individuals. 

The Chairman. Within what time? 

Mr. Minter. Within the fast two or three weeks. 

Senator Thomas. Do you mean owners or tenants? 

Mr. Minter. I mean landowners. I have seen them since the armi¬ 
stice w as signed, practically every resident landowner. I do not 
mean those in the city of Columbus who have land there and want 
to sell it. I mean the resident landowners, the real farmer who lives 
on the land and makes it his home. 

Senator McKellar. Your idea is that $400,000 would pay liber¬ 
ally for all damages that have been done? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; there has been no damage except to Mr. 
Bussey’s place, and where they have put in the railroad*, and maybe 
just ,a few T people who have lost their tenants. The only damage 
from that source would be remuneration, possibly, in rents. 

Senator Kellogg. Of course they should be remunerated liberally. 

Mr. Minter. There are some of those. There is no material dam¬ 
age, much, except to Mr. Bussey’s place. That is where they built 
the camp. 

The Chairman. Did they destroy his home? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; they proposed making an officers’ quarters 
of that. It is a very beautiful home and they have erected an office 
building in the rear of it, in a beautiful oak grove. 

The Chairman. Have they destroyed the grove? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; not entirely. I think they have destroyed 
a little of it, where they wanted to erect the building. 

Senator McKellar. I fancy the damage that has been sustained 
by these gentlemen is easy of ascertainment ? 

Mr. Minter. I think so. 

The Chairman. They are men, for instance, whose tenants were 
driven off the land? 

Mr. Minter. Well, the rentals of those farms for a year would be 
easily ascertainable. I think it could be adjusted that way. 

The Chairman. Even if he did not raise any crop this year ? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You might have to pay something for the monev 
lost in attending to getting some other home ? 

Mr. Minter. That is the only damage I see. and possibly a little 
timber that has been used—not much. In addition to this land. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


113 


there are acres and acres of virgin-pine timber in this reservation 
that is very valuable, and one of the gentlemen with me has, I sup¬ 
pose, $300,000 worth of timber rights all over this county, who has 
]ust started up there, Mr. Bergen, of the Bergen Timber Co., who has 
bought the timber rights all over the land. They have somewhere 
about $300,000 in this land, and there are millions and millions of 
feet of timber. 

The Chairman. Has this land been condemned ? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; it is condemned under this bill. This area 
produced, in agriculture yearly—I have made some figures on that— 
it is almost absolutely accurate .from the cotton end of it. That runs 
about $11,000,000 of production under the boll-weevil conditions. 
Before the boll weevil came it ran about twenty millions. The bal¬ 
ance of the agricultural production is, of course, a guess and an esti¬ 
mate—live stock and dairy products and grains of all kinds, but I 
am pretty sure it is as great as the cotton production. Even under 
boll-weevil conditions, the agricultural production of this 120,000- 
acre area, in both counties, will run easily about $25,000,000. 

Senator Wadsworth. Is your estimate based on 30-cent cotton? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir: prevailing prices for the State and cotton 
at the present time. That is based on a little less than half crops. 
That is under boll-weevil conditions. Crops have been considerably 
reduced recently. 

The Chairman. Will there be much damage sustained by a man 
like the gentleman here who has testified, Judge Wynn? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; Judge Wynn, you might say, does not live 
on the land. He comes and stays there in the summer time. He is 
practically a citizen of the city of Columbus. 

The Chairman. Take the case of a man who has given up his 
holdings and gone and borrowed money from the banks. 

Mr. Minter. One of those men has had ample funds to live where 
he pleases. He says he is perfectly satisfied, and wants to return to 
his home, although he has bought another home. One of the men 
is not in such good circumstances. He has bargained for a home in 
Alabama, and would have to get the money from the Government for 
•this land, to pay for it. 

The Chairman. If you were representing the Government to 
adjust these claims, do you think you would have any difficulty in 
adjusting them? 

Mr. Minter. No sir. 

The Chairman. You think it could be dene for $300,000? 

Mr. Minter. Yes sir. 

Senator Thomas. Could it be done within the range of $750,000? 

Mr. Minter. That would be very exorbitant. As I say, the 
damage to Mr. Bussey’s farm, and those four or five tracts the 
railroad runs through—it has been practically completed and of 
course those people would be entitled to damages along the right 
of wav where they have cut the timber. 

Senator McKellar. Could the railroad be used for any other 
purpose? 

Mr. Minter. I rather think it will result in a permanent rail- 

Senator McKellar. Which would be of great value for that land ? 

99137—19-8 


114 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; there is a charter to build a railroad just 
where it runs. It runs down the beautiful, fertile Chattahoochee 
Valley. There is no more beautiful tract of land than this. The 
creek there they have just spanned with a very long trestle. That 
was one of the big expenses they met within the building of this 
road. It is practically completed. The creek there is the dividing 
line between my county and Muscogee County. 

Senator McKellar. How much of this railroad is in your county ? 

Mr. Minter. It is just entering the county. The railroad is just 
on the edge of the county. 

Senator McKellar. How far is your county seat from the end of 
the railroad? 

Mr. Minter. About 16 miles. 

Senator McKellar. Any railroad connection between your county 
seat and Columbus? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the Seaboard and the Central of Georgia. 

Senator McKellar. Then this railroad, running through another 
portion of the county would be valuable? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; it furnishes a connection with the Central 
and the Seaboard and goes down the river. These two lines run 
toward my county seat. It is enough to develop this section, and in 
years past they have relied on the river boating, and that has been 
very unsatisfactory on acount of the filling of the stream. The rail¬ 
road is very much needed. 

Senator McKellar. The establisment of this railroad would be 
of value anyhow. 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the building of this road, by just about 15 
more miles of it, would connect with the main line of the Seaboard, 
at a little place on the river, and would save to the Seaboard on the 
western haul 43 miles. It would give them a cut across and save 
them a distance of about 43 miles, and I rather think that might 
have been behind that project in putting up the railroad up this 
river. I have two other gentlemen here with me from my county. 

Senator Smith. I want to ask Mr. Minter a few questions. 

The Chairman. Well, we will take a recess now until half past 
2 o’clock. 

(Whereupon a recess was taken until 2.30 o’clock p. m.) 

AFTER RECESS. 

The hearing was resumed at 2.30 o’clock p. m., pursuant to the tak¬ 
ing of recess, Senator Thomas presiding. 

Senator Thomas. Had you finished, Mr. Minter ? 

Mr. Minter. I have a few observations to make. 

Senator Thomas. You may proceed. 

STATEMENT OF MR. C. C. MINTER—Resumed. 

Mr. Minter. I want to add to what I have already said that the 
country people of Muskogee county and my county never invited the 
camp at any time. We got this one without an invitation. 

Senator Thomas. That is a somewhat unique experience in the last 
few years. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


115 


Mr. Minter. Our efforts here may be unique themselves. Gener¬ 
ally they try to get a little. We are asking not to be given so much 
from the Government. 

• Senator McKellar. You want to be let alone? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. * 

Senator McKellar. Do you hold an official position in the State of 
Georgia ? 

Mr. Minter. Not at all—none whatsoever. 

Senator McKellar. Were you ever State senator? 

Mr. Minter. I was State senator at one time. My term has expired. 

Senator McKellar. Has it expired ? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the only office, except the mayorship of my 
town, which was not remunerative—no salary attached to it. It was 
the only office I ever ran for. 

Senator Thomas. Just proceed with your statement. 

Mr. Minter. This project was begun by the chamber of commerce, 
and they have, I suspect, expended quite a large sum of money. They 
have kept representatives in Washington from the beginning of the 
war until this particular project was decided upon and brought to 
the city of Columbus. 

Senator Smith. What was your statement? 

Mr. Minter. I say the chamber of commerce and citizens of Colum¬ 
bus began their efforts to get a camp located at Columbus, with the 
inception of the war, practically, and have been working continuously 
since then to land a cantonment. I do not thing they were out for a 
military reservation like they have got, but they wanted a canton¬ 
ment, and at one time they did take options on a different section of 
the country, part of which was in Chattahoochie County, in the 
northern part, a very much poorer part than this, for an artillery 
school, I think, or an artillery ground. 

Senator Smith. Don’t you know that a commission from the Army 
came down there and asked them for it and they took those options 
at the request of the Army officers ? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; I do not know that, Senator. 

Senator Smith. You do not know much about it? 

Mr. Minter. I know the chamber of commerce did, because I took 
many options myself, personally. The options were made to the 
chamber of commerce, with a clause in there agreeing that they 
would transfer the thing to the Government—something of that kind. 
I am sorry I did not bring the options with me. They got a great 
many of them, mostly in the northern part of Chattahoochie County 
and part of Muscogee, a different territory from that now occupied. 

Senator Smith. I ask you, don’t you know a committee of Army 
officers came down there and went over the ground and asked them 
to get the options for the Artillery camp, and it was done at the in¬ 
stance of the Army committee? 

Mr. Minter. That might have been. I do not know that. I do 
not know whether they did or not, but I rather think it occurred this 
way: They went ahead and got the options and invited the officers 
down afterwards. 

Senator Smith. You do not know that the Army officers were there 
without their invitation? 

Mr. Minter. I remember when the Army officers were there, look¬ 
ing over the ground. That was after the options were obtained. I 


116 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


helped obtain the options myself. That was at the time when the 
war was running in the early part of 1917, or soon after the war be¬ 
gan. I do not know, but I think it was in September, 1917, when 
thpse options .were taken, and all of those options expired on the 10th 
day of December, 1917. I took thousands of dollars worth of them 
myself. The Army officers came there afterwards. 

Senator Smith. The Army officers went there before. 

Mr. Minter. I do not know that. 

Senator Smith. But you ought to know that. 

Mr. Minter. It seems to me that that project fell down, and they 
kept representatives here and Mr. Betcherman stayed here .month 
after month, besides a number of other representatives of the cham¬ 
ber of commerce from the city of Columbus, and I was invited to 
attend a dinner not very long ago, a get-together dinner, when they 
presented to Mr. Betcherman a loving cup and a check for $2,500 
for securing the camp for the chamber of commerce of the city of 
Columbus. That was just early in December, that that took place, 

Senator McKellar. Who was Mr. Betcherman? 

Mr. Minter. He is a gentleman who lives in the city of Columbus, 
and was representing the chamber of commerce, I suppose, and 
others—those that were behind this project. 

This was entirely a project—I mean as to the local end of it—by 
the chamber of commerce and citizens associated with them, and 
within the city of Columbus, a town of about 25,000 people. There 
were two-thirds to three-fourths of the population of Columbus op¬ 
posed to this camp, but it is a subdued undercurrent of opposition. 
They are business people and will not come out in the open and 
fight the proposition. It is a large cotton manufacturing town. 
Every mill in that town is opposed to it. 

Senator Thomas. You say they are opposed to it? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I mean the business end of it. They have 
there a very large iron works. There is one of the largest iron works 
in the South in Columbus that makes all of the plow holds for six or 
eight States, and various other tools—the Southern Plow Works. 

Senator Thomas. Why are they opposed to it? . 

Mr. Mtnter. I rather think it is from the labor standpoint, that 
it might make labor higher, perhaps, and for those reasons they do 
not want it. 

Senator Knox. If those interests' are all opposed to it, how did it 
happen that the chamber of commerce was so active in moving for 
the establishment of the camp there? 

Mr. Minter. Those very people, perhaps, many of them, have 
told me they contributed to the fund to secure a cantonment at 
Columbus to start with, through the Chamber of Commerce, but 
when it took this turn, and it became a proposition to establish a 
permanent affair there they changed their views about. I have had 
numbers of those citizens tell me that. They do not want a per¬ 
manent camp, with the turning out of the 8,000 rural population. 
For patriotic reasons they were willing to do their part while the 
war was running, but there are quite a number of interests in Colum¬ 
bus who are opposed to it, a very large number of mercantile and 
wholesale houses. They are opposed to that. They told me that, 
but being business men, it is a subdued current of opposition and 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. ' 


117 


they Avill not come out in the open. It is practically unanimous in 
the rural districts with the farmers who live on their farms. There 
are scarcely 2,000 men that live on the farms, who want to give up 
their farms at any price, and want to be moved and paid by the 
Government, even fabulous sums. Some farms are in the third and 
fourth generations. They are productive farms. I have one particu¬ 
lar farm in mind that produces an annual income of forty to fifty 
thousand dollars net. Those people who own it now have held it 
down to the fourth and fifth generation. They do not want to give it 
up at any price. . That same man has bought, I suppose, $50,000 worth 
of Liberty bonds and war-savings stamps, and has helped every other 
cause during the continuance of the war very liberally. He says he 
has not got any price on his land at all. 

Senator New. A cotton planter? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and lives on his farm. All the people, or 
nearly all of the people, who ivant to sell are those who own the 
land and live somewhere else—own land in the camp zone, but- do* 
not live on it. They rent mostly to negroes. We have very few 
white tenants. The owners live elsewhere, and the farms are many 
of them unprofitable and run down, but of the farmers who live on 
their land, 98 per cent do not want to sell at any price, and I am 
here representing them, free of charge, without any pay except 
my expenses. 

The Chairman. Could you give the names of the men who want 
to sell? 

Mr. Minter. G. S. Sammons, with a 1,600-acre tract—he wants 
to sell. 

Senator McKellar. Do you know the price he wants? 

Mr. Minter. Somewhere between $30 and $35 an acre. 

Senator McKellar. Is that a good price? 

Mr. Minter. It is a pretty good price. While it is not a large 
tract, he has some valuable land, but a heap of very poor land— 
washed-out land, in the hills. 

Senator New. You said you represented about 98 per cent of the 
landowners? 

Mr. Minter. Not the landowners, but those who live on their 
places. 

Senator New. Those who live on their farms ? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. About how many people are there that constitute 
that 98 per cent? 

Mr. Minter. About 3,300 population within my county. 

Senator New. That is the total population? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. There are about 3,300 within the camp 
zone living in my country. There are about 4,700 living in Muscogee 
County, making about 8,000 population. You see, as you approach 
the city of Columbus, it is very much more densely populated. 

Senator New. I am asking you how many people you really repre¬ 
sent ? 

Mi*. Minter. About 60 or 70 per cent of those that are owners, 
I should think, while many of those tenants are just as anxious to 
remain and do not want to go—of course they have no real interest 
in the value of the land—they do not own it. 


118 


LAND FOE AETILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator New. Do I understand, Mr. Minter, that you actually 
represent here approximately 4,000 land owners? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; there are not that many landowners. It 
will run down very small, when it comes to landowners, because 
a man who owns his farm might have a family of ten or fifteen. That 
reduces the real ownership considerably. You might say I represent 
that family, because they are owners, as a rule. 

Senator New. Can you tell us approximately how many of these 
people now, of the landowners—how many own land in their own 
name ? 

Mr. Minter. Well, I think there is in the neighborhood of 300 or 
400 landowners in the whole country. 

Senator New. Y r ou represent all but two of them? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; I do not represent all the landowners. I 
represent the landowners who live on their land. 

Senator New. Represent landowners? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. How many of those 300 are resident landowners? 

Mr. Minter. Well, there are about—I should say 200, or 225, or 250. 

Senator New. A majority of them? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; a great majority. That is a guess on my 
part, you understand. 

Senator New. Did I understand you correctly, some time ago, 
to say that only two had moved away? 

Mr. Minter. Only two in my county that I know of, and 1 have 
a pretty accurate knowledge of the situation. Now, there might 
be one or two others. Mr. Christian has moved, and Mr. Gaiford 
has moved. Both of them have gone to Alabama. He is able to 
move anywhere he wants to. 

Senator McKellar. I suppose you know all these gentlemen who 
came here and are on the other side of the question—who present 
the other side of the question ? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. How many of them are land dwellers—resi¬ 
dents on the land? 

Mr. Minter. I do not think there is a single representative among 
the Columbus delegation that is a resident on any of those lands 
being condemned. They are all out of the city of Columbus. 

Senator McKellar. You know all of these gentlemen? 

Mr. Minter. Personally, every one. All of them, practically, are 
my personal friends. 

Senator McKellar. And those here in the room are all men who 
do not live on the land? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; they live in the city of Columbus or its 
suburbs. 

Senator Smith. Does not Judge Wynn spend practically all his 
time on the land and have his residence there and stay there practi¬ 
cally the year around, directing his farming there? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; his citizenship is in the city of Columbus. 
He goes and comes. His health is bad. 

Senator Smith. Doesn’t he spend 10 months on the farm ? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; I really do not think he does. He really 
lives with his mother-in-law, who bought a farm about 10 months 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


119 


ago—an adjoining farm to liis place. He does not spend his time 
on his place, but lives with Mrs. Fox, his mother-in-law. 

Senator Smith. Doesn’t he live on the farm and direct the farm¬ 
ing work from there? 

Mr. Min ter. Yes; but I should say, though, that he has spent 
nearly half of his time in the city of Columbus. 

The Chairman. How far is Columbus from his home? 

Mr. Winter. .Sixteen miles from the place at which he stays. 

The Chairman. On an automobile road? 

Mr. Winter. Yes, sir; one of the prettiest in Georgia—the county 
of Chattahoochee built it. 

The Chairman. And it only takes an hour to run it? 

Mr. Winter. Hardly that long—about 40 minutes. It is a very 
pretty road. All the road building Chattahoochee did is in the * 
camp zone, and the portion left outside of the camp zone is very 
poor. 

Senator Smith. Muscogee County built the road that you are 
speaking of, did it? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; Chattahoochee built this road with a little 
aid. The Muscogee citizens contributed $3,450 to the building of 
the Cussetta road, the one I am speaking of as being such a pretty 
road, and it cost $20,000, and is about 10 or 12 miles long. Muscogee 
County promised to pay half of the expense, but they have never con¬ 
tributed over $3,450. That was the agreement when we started to 
build the road. 

Senator McKellar. This road will be entirely taken up with the 
Government project. 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. The other road the Senator refers to is 
through the camp zone, too, and while Muscogee County contributed 
largely to that, it is 10 miles from the county seat. It is the road that 
leads from Buena Yista. 

Senator Sutherland. Is there likely to be any claim from the 
county that built this road for this road improvement ? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I should think so. 

Senator Smith. Is it not the plan of the camp to keep the road 
open? 

Mr. Minter. The Buena Yista Road and the Cusseta Road are, I 
understand, to remain open to travel. There is one other public 
highway, a much-traveled highway, that will be closed, known as the 
River Road, the Lumpkin Road. 

Senator McKellar. If the citizens have to move out it will not be 
much used? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; of course it will let us into the southwestern 
section. 

Senator Sutherland. It will be kept up at Government expense, 
will it not? 

Mr. Minter. I do not know. I represent the county commissioners 
in this instance, and they would, if the camp comes, make claim for 
remuneration for that road-building, and there are several other 
lateral roads that I have not mentioned that would be closed entirely 
to public travel. 

The Chairman. Mr. Garrard was one of the county commissioners. 

Mr. Minter. He is in another county. He represents the county 


120 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


commissioners of Muscogee. I am also representing a farming ele¬ 
ment of Muscogee County, living on that forty or fifty^ thousand 
acres they are taking. Mr. Berry, a farmer, is here. 

We handled this by an organization. We organized at a mass 
meeting and many of them appointed an executive committee to 
handle this thing in Chattahoochee County. They have the same 
thing in Muscogee County. They appointed an executive committee 
and myself and another gentleman were selected to come to Wash¬ 
ington. Of course there are other gentlemen at the other end look¬ 
ing out for this. This is the second trip I have made. I conferred 
with Senator Smith and our Congressman at first, and we have been 
very active. The newspapers of the city of Columbus have sup¬ 
pressed all news in opposition to this camp. We have submitted 
articles, but we could not get them published. We finally got a little 
publicity through the Atlanta and Macon papers. That was gratui¬ 
tous, and then the Columbus papers reproduced some of those 
articles, in the last few editions. They would not reproduce anything 
that another paper said about it until this committee—and maybe 
there had been some other action in Washington—had taken some 
notice of the matter, and then the Columbus papers reproduced sev¬ 
eral articles, and incidentally jumped on me. 

The Chairman. You did not mind that, did you? 

Mr. Minter. Not a bit in the world. 

Senator Smith. You have stated that this land produced $10,000,- 
000 worth of cotton. 

Mr. Minter. I said about $11,000,000 worth. 

Senator Smith. How many bales of cotton did your whole county 
produce last }^ear? 

Mr. Minter. The whole county’s production last year w T as about 
2,800 or 3,000 bales. 

Senator. Smith. The whole county’s production was not worth 
anything like $10,000,000. 

Mr. Minter. The whole county, before the boll wevil came, pro¬ 
duced about 9,000 bales. 

Senator Smith. And cotton did not sell before the boll weevil at 
anything like the prices now ? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir. The Muscogee part produced a little more 
than we did. 

Senator Smith. You said that part of your county produced 
$10,000,000 worth of cotton? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. It produced last year, in all, 2,870' bales of 
cotton ? 

Mr. Minter. That is what I said. 

Senator Smith. Now half of that—what proportion of that was 
in this area. 

Mr. Minter. About two-thirds. 

Senator Smith. Then the value was a little over a million dollars, 
at 30 cents a pound ? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and the seeds were valuable. 

Senator Smith. Then, you have gotten entirely outside of the 
figures when you said $10,000,000 ? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; I said before the boll weevil came it pro¬ 
duced more than that. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


121 


Senator Smith. But it was not worth anything like that because 
it did not sell at 30 cents a pound. 

Mr. Minter. That was an off year last year. It was the shortest 
crop we have had in the history of the county. 

Senator Smith. And the highest price. 

Mr. Minter. The boll weevil ate it up. They planted peanuts 
and velvet beans. 

Senator Smith. How much was it in 1915? 

Mr. Minter. I do not remember. 

Senator Smith. Was it not less in 1915 than last year? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; it was not. I remember it was over 9,000 
in 1914. Now, that is the last year before the boll weevil started. 

Senator Smith. Then it was worth 5 cents a pound, certainly 
not over 6, in 1914. 

Mr. Minter. Well, I sold my crop at about. Ilf cents. 

Senator Smith. Don’t you know that cotton sold in 1914 at 6 cents 
a pound ? 

Mr. Minter. A little bit. 

Senator Smith. That was a big drop. 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; but most people held it in our county 
and got more than that. They held it until the tie-up was over. 

Senator Smith. It was worth and only produced 6 cents a pound 
in 1914. It never did produce a Crop that was worth half of 
$10,000,000. Don’t you know that is so—or a third of it or a fourth 
of it? 

Mr. Minter, No, sir; and I want to say this, Senator, that ours 
is an undeveloped county. 

Senator Smith. That is not what I asked you. I want to say to 
you that you are entirely off from the facts, that you are not even 
approximately accurate. Don’t you know that is true, that this 
county never pioduced even approximately $10,000,000 worth of 
cotton. 

Senator McKellar. How many bales did it amount to? 

Mr. Minter. Two thousand eight hundred and seventy. As I 
said, they cut down the acreage of cotton on account of the boll 
weevil and they planted velvet beans and peanuts. 

Senator Smith. I want to know where it stood about cotton. 
What was your statement about cotton ? 

Mr. Minter. My statement was that before the boll weevil came 
we produced over 9,000 bales. 

Senator Smith. Your statement was you produced $11,000,000 
worth of cotton—produced it in this area in Chattahoochee County 
that the Government is taking, and I am just asking you and show¬ 
ing you that you are wrong. 

Mr. Minter. I said in both counties. 

Senator Smith. You said in your county. 

Mr. Minter. I said in the camp area. 

Senator Smith. In Chattahoochee County, in the camp area. 

Mr. Minter. I said in the camp area; they produced more cotton 
in Muscogee. 

Senator Smith. Don’t you know in both together they never pro¬ 
duced approximately any such figure? 


122 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

Mr. Minter. I think both of them together have produced as 
much as 21,000 or 23,000 bales of cotton. I have not got those figures 
exactly. 

Senator Smith. When you come to figure on anything, you have 
got to take the value of the cotton at the time it was produced. 

Mr. Minter. In the most recent years it has been cut in half on 
account of the boll weevil, and perhaps a little less than half in 
the last year. 

Senator Smith. Do you still insist that .your statement that 
$11,000,000 worth of cotton was produced is approximately true? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; under normal conditions it is approximately 
true. 

Senator Smith. But you have got to take the value of the cotton 
at the time you have the particular production. 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. Now, take each year and figure it. 

Mr. Minter. You can make those figures just as well as I can. 

Senator Smith. Select your year and I will make the figures. 

Mr. Minter. I have no figures. You have got what the produc¬ 
tion of the cotton crop was in that county. 

Senator Smith. Last year your production in the whole county 
was 2,877 bales, and your two-thirds of that amount at 30 cents a 
pound was only $1,137,000 instead of $11^000,000. 

Senator McKellar. Two-thirds of it— I have the figures here— 
amounts to $2,869,000. 

Mr. Minter. You put the cotton seed tonnage on that and it will 
run up another half million or more. I also modified that state¬ 
ment with this. I say that last year the cotton acreage was very 
materially reduced in all that section on account of the boll weevil 
and they raised other crops. 

Senator Sutherland. If you had raised your average crop last 
year you would have probably gotten your 30 cents? 

Mr. Minter. We would have gotten somewhere between $10,- 
000,000 and $12,000,000 on the entire cotton area. 

Senator Smith. If the normal crop had been raised all over the 
South, it would not have sold for anything like 30 cents. 

Senator Sutherland. But figuring in your cotton products? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the seeds are very valuable. Last year I 
sold quite a few seeds at $85 a ton. 

Senator Sutherland. You hope to get rid of the boll weevil and 
resume production of your maximum crops? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the boll weevil made its appearance in 1914. 

Senator Thomas. What will you do for appropriations in the 
Agriculture appropriations bill for that county if the boll weevil 
disappears? 

Senator Smith. You stated something about the number of people 
who had moved out. You stated that you represented 98 per cent of 
the property owners that live on their land. 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. Name the men who have employed you. 

Mr. Minter. I said about 98 per cent. 

Senator Smith. Name the men who have employed you. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 123 

Mr. Minter. I think I have made that clear to the committee how 
I was representing them, that the thing had been handled by mass 
meetings, and the selection of executive committees. 

Senator McKellar. You had mass meetings about this thing? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and those mass meetings selected an execu¬ 
tive committee to handle the whole thing. They were given plenary 
powers to handle the situation. 

Senator McKellar. Where have they been held? 

Mr. Minter. Numbers of times. We had a mass meeting last 
week—two or three in both counties—and maybe the first was held 
in the middle of December; I am not sure of that. That executive 
committee selected myself and Mr. Bergen, who is with me, and Mr. 
Berry, from Muscogee County, to come to Washington and present 
this matter to the committee, if we could get a hearing. That is the 
way we represent them. I have personal knowledge that it is prac¬ 
tically unanimous, because I have ridden that section from one end 
to another, trying to serve my county. That is the main interest I 
have. I own a piece of land in that camp zone. I would be glad to 
sell it to the Government or anybody else, but I had rather keep the 
land than to remove these old farmers from their homes. 

Senator Smith. Coming back to your cotton again, I find that the 
Senator from Tennessee added a nought inadvertently in his calcu¬ 
lation. 3,000 bales of cotton at $150 a bale, is $450,000, and not 
$4,500,000, at 30 cents a pound; and if the whole production of your 
county had been increased to 3,000 bales, it would have amounted to 
$450,000. 

Senator Thomas. If you keep on, you will figure him down to 
zero. 

Senator Smith. I am figuring him where he belongs. 

Mr. Minter. I may have figured like the Senator from Ten¬ 
nessee, but that is what I figured on, though. 

Senator Smith. Just multiply 3,000 by $150 and see what you get. 

Mr. Minter. It figures $150,000 for a thousand bales, but I was 
basing it on a very conservative production in normal times—at 
5,000 bales of cotton. 

Senator Smith. 5,000 bales of cotton would be $750,000 instead of 
$11,000,000, at 30 cents a pound, and when you had your normal 
production, it sold for 6 cents a pound. 

Senatr Thomas. You raised $11,000,000 worth in the State, how¬ 
ever, did you not? 

Senator Smith. Yes; but I was talking about this county. 

Mr. Minter. After going over the figures, I find I am in error. 
There was 5,000 bales raised. I was in error. It was just an error 
of calculation, but there is in normal times, about 8,000 bales of cot¬ 
ton raised in that area? 

Senator Smith. Not since the boll weevil. 

Mr. Minter. I said in normal times. That is not normal. 

Senator McKellar. The boll weevil is a subnormal bug. 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. You have not got the names of those people you 
say you represent : —you represent this committee? . 

Mr. Minter. I represent Mr. W. A.Weems and Mrs. F. M. Adams, 
who own 7,000 acres of land; I represent W. I. Van Horn and his 


124 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


two maiden sisters who own about 7,000 acres of land—that is about 
14,000 acres. That is not exactly correct; it is approximate. I repre¬ 
sent Mr. Parkman and practically everybody else. 

Senator Smith. Do you know where Tom Parkman is now ? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; I saw him last week at the mass meeting at 
Harmony School. He contributed to the fund to pay for this com¬ 
mittee. 

Senator Smith. Has he not moved out of the county ? 

Mr. Minter. I do not know that he has. 

Senator Smith. Do you know where Pat McBride is? 

Mr. Minter. That is a negro? 

Senator Smith. I do not know. Has he not moved out of the 
county ? 

Mr. Minter. I do not know if he has. • 

Senator Smith. No ; he is white. Has not Sam McBride moved out 
of this district? 

Mr. Minter. If he has it is recently. 

Senator Smith. Has not Mrs. Lillian Schley moved out? 

Mr. Minter. I do not know. 

Senator Smith. Has not Bob Batey moved out? 

Mr. Minter. There is no such person unless he is colored. 

Senator Smith. Bob Batey? 

Mr. Minter. There may have been a colored man there b} 7 that 
name. 

Senator Smith. Has not Lane Talbott moved out? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; he contributed to this fund. 

Senator Smith. Has he not bought a farm in Muscogee County? 
Mr. Minter. I do not know of that directly. He contributed to 
this fund. I know that. 

Senator Smith. Has not Hath Kelley moved out? 

Mr. Minter. Who is that? 

Senator Smith. A white man? 

Mr. Minter. I do not know anybody by that name. 

Senator Smith. Has not Jack Chester, ji\, moved out? 

Mr. Minter. I do not know. 

Senator Smith. Has not Albert Farr moved out? 

Mr. Minter. He had not moved out up to quite recently. 

Senator Smith. How about Tom Dalton? 

Mr. Minter. If he has moved out it has been quite recently, then. 
Senator Smith. Has not Cliff Clark moved out? 

Mr. Minter. He is a tenant. He is a negro. 

Senator Smith. Has not Dr. Sapp moved out? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; I think not. 

Senator Smith. Has not Count Sapp moved out? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; I think Count Sapp—yes, I think he has re¬ 
cently bought a farm in south Georgia. 

Senator Smith. Has not, Dr. Sapp gone out of Georgia—gone away 
with him? 

Mr. Minter. I don’t think so. 

Senator Smith. Are you sure? 

Mr. Minter. He may have gone. He does not want to go. He 
wants to come back, if he has gone. 

Senator Smith. Has not Will Sapp gone? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


125 


Mr. Minter. He had not up to recently. Will Sapp, if he has 
gone, wants to come back. He told me so personally. He helped 
raise this fund. 

Senator Smith. Has not Tom Jenkins moved out? 

Mr. Minter. 1 could not tell you. He did not want to go, if he 
did go. 

Senator Smith. I didn’t say anything about whether he wanted 
to go. Has not Lee Willis left? 

Mr. Minter. I think not. He doesn’t want to go at any price. 
Mr. Jenkins told me the same thing. 

Senator Smith. Has not Drane Bullock moved out? 

Mr. Minter. He is a resident of Columbus. He owns a very fine 
farm there. He divides his time between his farm and the city of 
Columbus. 

Senator Smith. Has not Dr. Huer moved to Ellerslie? 

Mr. Minter. He might have. He owns a small tract of land. 

Senator Smith. Has not Charles McBride left and gone to Ala¬ 
bama ? 

Mr. Minter. If he did he went because he had to. He contributed 
to the fund. 

Senator Smith. Has not Bedford Layfield gone to Lumpkin, Ga. ? 

Mr. Minter. Practically every man you have named contributed 
to this fund. 

Senator Smith. Has not Bartow Psalmonds and his four sons left ? 

Mr. Minter. I don't think he has. He said he would give me a 
thousand dollars to keep the camp from coming there. 

Senator Smith. Has not Jim Oats moved to Alabama? 

Mr. Minter. That is a darky. I could not tell you about all those 
darkies. There are very few of the persons you have named who are 
landowners. 

Senator Thomas. The darkies don’t count, do they? 

Mr. Minter. Yes; they count all right. 

Senator Smith. Has not Andrew Schley moved out? 

Mr. Minter. I do not know. lie didn’t want to go, if he did. 

Senator Smith. Has not Albert Harris left, and moved to Harris 
County ? 

Mr. Minter. He may have. He is a tenant—just a cropper. 

Senator Smith. Has not Louis Buford moved to north Muscogee 
County ? 

Mr. Minter. I could not tell you. He has been on Mr. Van Horn’s 
place quite a long time. He did not want to go, if he did. 

Senator Smith. He is a tenant. 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; a negro. 

Senator Smith. Were not a number of the men I have named 
landoAvners? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and they will not claim any damages if 
the camp will go. 

Senator Smith. Have you any authority to speak for them—to 
waive all damages? 

Mr. Minter. In a general way. They told me they would rather 
have their homes than for the" Government to take them. Those 
who have been actually damaged, it would be right and just to 
pay them. 


126 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Smith. For whom have you a right to waive damages 
and waive right to claim damages if the Government takes their 
land ? 

Mr. Minter. None at all, except in a general way. I have heard 
them discuss the thing, and know the situation, being on the ground 
where the damages are. You can not get damages unless you have 
been damaged. 

Senator Thomas. You can in some sections. 

Mr. Minter. I do not think the damage end of it will run very 
heavy. Those people are too anxious to stay where they are. 

Senator McKellar. Let me ask }mu this: Are there any churches 
or schoolhouses on this land? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; quite a number of them. 

Senator McKellar. And grave yards, etc.? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. People have been living there a long time? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. This camp will take in all tlie churches and 
grave yards and schoolhouses, etc.? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and there is one, a rural school building, 
that I reckon is about the best in Georgia, if not the best, 8 miles east 
of Columbus, in the Muscogee part of this ground, a modern up- 
to-date graded school, a magnificient building. 

Senator McKellar. And it is proposed to take the schoolhouses- 
churches, and graveyards? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Old landmarks that have been there for 
some time? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I think it takes the poorhouse. 

Senator Thomas. Do you represent them? 

Mr. Minter. No, sir; Mr. Garrard represents that. 

Senator Smith. Didn’t you advertise for a joint meeting at the 
courthouse in Muscogee, of those who are opposed to this project? 

Mr. Minter. Dr. Huer and some others did, against my advice. 

Senator Smith. Were there not over 400 present and you did not 
get over 15 votes? 

Mr. Minter. I was in the city of Washington, and my informa¬ 
tion is that Dr. Huer did call a meeting for this in the city of Co¬ 
lumbus, for those who were opposed to the camp. That was the 
notice. 1 advised against it. I told him that the chamber of com¬ 
merce end of it would pack the house, which they did, and it rained 
in torrents, I told them they would pack the house. It poured in 
torrents for three days, and the people opposed to this project, the 
rural end of it—it was just imposible for them to get there. That 
is my information. I was in Washington at the time it took place. 

Senator McKellar. You advised against it? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. You thought they might pack it? 

Mr. Minter. I knew just what happened would happen. I knew 
the opposition w r as all in the rural districts. 

The Chairman. How many landowners were at the meeting? 

Senator McKellar. How many resident land owners? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 127 

Mr. Minter. Mr. Berry was present. I understand 40 or 50. 
They went there in torrents of rain. It was almost impossible to 
reach it. It had been raining for three days. 

Senator Thomas. I understood the testimony was that it did not 
rain there at all. 

Mr. Minter. My information was that there were about 50. Mr. 
Berry can tell you. But, as I said, the other side packed the house. 

Senator Smith. How do you know that was done? 

Mr. Minter. That is my information. I told them that would 
happen and advised against a mass meeting. 

Senator McKellar. About this rain: I think there is some testi¬ 
mony that it did not rain there? 

Mr. Minter. It was raining when I left. 

Senator McKellar. Is it not the testimony that immediately after 
a rain they could use the land for all practical purposes? 

Senator New. This testimony that Mr. Minter has given is very 
reminiscent of some occurrences at Terra Haute, Ind. 

Mr. Minter. Unless there are some questions to be asked, I have 
nothing further. 

Senator Smith. I will ask you one more question. Did you say 
you have no contingent fee- 

Mr. Minter. Not a cent. This is all gratuitous on my part. I 
have had people come to me and tell me that if we could stop this 
camp they would be willing to give a very large sum of money to 
me, or to make a contract with me, but I have no agreement with 
anybody and don’t expect a cent from anybody. They knew per¬ 
sonally I was opposed to this as much as anybody. 

Senator McKellar. You are giving your time and they are paying 
your expenses, without any other compensation? 

Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I have given about two months of my time, 
I suppose, to this matter, and the balance of the time—18 months— 
I gave to the Government on free work for the war. I was chair¬ 
man of the Liberty loan organization in my county, and the Red 
Cross, and they went over the top in every instance. 

As to the value of the cotton crop, I reached that from an error 
in calculation, because I figured a thousand bales would be a million 
and a half dollars. 

Senator McKellar. Oh, that is immaterial. 

Mr. Minter. It is immaterial, but I was honest in making that 
statement. I want the committee to understand that. 

Senator Thomas. Cotton may go to that. 

Senator McKellar. Here is hoping it will. 

STATEMENT OF MR. JOE S. BERGEN. 

The Chairman. Please give your name, address, and business to 
the stenographer. 

Mr. Bergen. Joe S. Bergen, secretary and treasury of the Bergen 
Lumber Co., a corporation, organized under the laws of Georgia, in 
Chattahoochee County. I live at Cuesta. We are manufacturers 
of pine lumber. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bergen, will you state very generally your 
views on the situation that has been discussed as to the propriety of 



128 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


prosecuting this project or abandoning it. What, in your opinion, 
is the best thing to be done with it ? 

Mr. Bergen. Of course I am not a military man nor a lawyer. I 
am what you might say, a business man. Our corporation went 
there and bought this timber and established its plant in the town— 
in the corporate limits of Cueseta and spent something like $25,000. 
We have in this timber zone—almost in this camp zone—something 
like 12,000 acres of land. We have the deeds to the timber on this 
much land, and at this mass meeting which was held at Cueseta, 
why I was elected secretary and treasurer of that executive com¬ 
mittee and was sent to Washington. It is the second time I have 
been here. The first time we came here, we made an appeal to the 
War Department, and Mr. Wright, our Congressman, helped us, 
and we went to see Maj. Holden and made an appeal to him to save 
the county. Mr. Wright agreed with our position. He said he was 
only endeavoring to get a camp for the people there at Columbus. 
We had not invited any camp, and it would be all right, with him, 
to so arrange the lines as to save the county. We went to Maj. 
Holden and he treated us very nicely, and he called in Mr. Wood 
and sent him to Columbus, and requested him to go over with Col. 
Eames, and in a manner to save the county. Col. Eames w T as the 
man on the ground and was familiar with the geographical 
conditions. 

Senator Wadsworth. About what time was this—about what 
date? 

Mr. Bergen. I think it was possibly a month ago. 

Senator McKellar. Was it after the armistice had been declared? 

Mr. Min ter. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. After November 11? 

Mr. Min ter. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wadsworth. Was it after the condemnation proceedings 
were filed? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I think they were filed on November 2. 

Senator Wadsworth. Do I gather from that that the boundaries 
of this area were somewhat indefinite even after the condemnation 
proceedings were started? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; we had a letter from the War Department. 
Col. Minter and I read it, dated November 9, stating they wanted 
to protect the subdivision of the State there, and were already con¬ 
templating releasing a portion of the territory. That letter came 
from the War Department. 

Senator Wadsworth. They intended to amend the bill that was 
placed on file? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; contemplated releasing these lands. That 
letter was dated September T or 9—I think it was the 9th. 

Senator Wadsworth. Whom did you say you took the matter up 
with before you took it up with Col. Eames? 

Mr. Bergen. In Maj. Holden’s office. 

Senator McKellar. Have you got that letter you spoke of ? 

Mr. Bergen. No, sir; I did not bring it with me. I presented it 
to Col. Eames. 

Mr. *Bergen. We carried the letter back* and asked them to call a 
meeting of the chamber of commerce to get them to go to Col. 
Eames to save the county. 


LAND FOB ARTILLEKY TRAINING FIELDS. 129 

Senator Thomas. You mean by saving the county, establishing 
the reservation outside of the county? 

Mr. Bergen. Not entirely, but we thought since they had built a 
railroad—of course we realized the War Department, before the war 
ended, or before the armistice was signed, could do anything it 
wanted to, but afterwards we felt the emergenc}' was over and it 
would be up to Congress to decide whether this thing would be es¬ 
tablished. That is the reason why I have not moved out my mill 
and am still sawing ahead, although it has inconvenienced me, and 
caused me a lot of loss. If I could be left alone I would not present 
any claim for losses. We have dressed 2,000,000 feet of boards and 
shipped them to the Government, the first two carloads, I think, 
were shipped to the temporary camp that was built in Columbus— 
Maj. Jones gave me the order. We have run almost 100 per cent 
capacity for the various cantonments. We have shipped lumber to 
the camp at Camp Jackson, and sent them a large order, and then 
to the DuPont Powder Works, and to other places. 

The Chairman. Do you know the general sentiment of the people 
in that territory ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In that military zone? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I do not know all the people but I am hon¬ 
est and sincere in saying that I know that the very people, lots of 
them, that have answered this condemnation proceeding, as I under¬ 
stand, are men that I associate with. One of them is Col. Weems, 
who has 8,000 acres, and I bought a lot of my timber from him. He 
would rather be left alone, while I am in the camp zone with a lot of 
my timber there. Still there is a lot of people anxious to sell the land 
and to dump it on the Government. 

Senator McKellar. Do you agree with Col. Minter in his state¬ 
ment that 98 per cent of the resident landowners would prefer the 
camp not to be built there, and that they should be left alone? What 
is your judgment? 

Mr. Bergen. I do not kno.w about that. I could not say. He may 
be exactly correct in his statements. 

Senator McKellar. What is your judgment about the sentiment 
of the landowners who reside on the land, who live on the land? 
What is their sentiment ? 

Mr. Bergen. I believe they would rather be left alone. There are 
only two parties that I know of that are in favor of this. 

Senator McKellar. Who are they ? 

Mr. Bergen. One is a man named Huer, and John Sammons. 

Senator McKellar. They are in favor of selling to the Govern¬ 
ment? Have they agreed with the Government on the price of the 
land? 

Mr. Bergen. Not to my knowledge. I have heard that one has, but 
I do not know\ 

This movement, down there, of course, has been largely, as I see it, 
of Columbus friends up there. They are all good folks, but they 
are after the camp, and we had no objection to that in our resolution. 
While I do not oppose the Government or Columbus in having a camp 
while it was necessary, still, after the emergency had passed, to make 


99137—19-9 



130 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


this enormous expenditure and uproot these people, we felt was un¬ 
necessary. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear that the Committee on Military 
Affairs refused to indorse the proposition of the War Department 
to buy a part of the land on the eastern shore of Maryland and turn 
about 3,000 people off of their land? 

Senator McKellar. At Camp Allen. This committee refused to 
let them be dispossessed. 

Mr. Bergen. The people at Columbus have been so active in this 
matter we have had no way of bringing it to the attention of any¬ 
body. It is simply a matter of justice and fairness. We have no ob¬ 
jection to Columbus having a camp for the War Department, but we 
do not want to make all the sacrifice. 

Senator New. You do not want Columbus to camp on you? 

Mr. Bergen. That is it. This is the second time I have been here. 
When we went to Col. Eames, that much of it was hearsay, but when 
we came back from Washington, we had first-hand information. The 
chamber of commerce rather endorsed our position and agreed to 
send a committee to try to save the county. 

Senator McKellar. You mean to convince the Government to 
leave you enough land to be still a county ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; exactly. We would have to build roads, and 
the county is a poor county anyway. Chattahoochee is purely an 
agricultural county anyway, and, as was stated a while ago, they come 
within five-eighths of a mile of the county seat. It looked like they 
tried to leave that to us. From our standpoint it would have been 
better to have taken it all. 

The Chairman. I do not believe you finished your statement that 
you started a while ago. 

Mr. Bergen. We went out to Col. Eames, and he explained his 
position. I never met a nicer gentleman in my life. He went over 
it and said, u If I were like you people, I would take the same posi¬ 
tion you do.” He went over and explained it to us, and he said 
“ You can not understand my position like I can yours.” We said 
we did not know about the shooting and the rifle ranges, etc., but he 
said “ If you will give me 48 hours to look over some other territory, 
I will see if I can not make you a proposition.” When the 48 hours 
were up he phoned and wrote a letter and said he could not make 
any changes. We went back to see him and he said he would take 
the same position we did if he lived there; and we asked him the 
question, that if he lived there, and was taking the position we were, 
and was going before an officer on the ground, and the officer could 
not make any concession, what would he do? That question, he 
never answered. So, we came to Washington. 

Senator McKellar. Were you employed by anyone to come here, 
or are you here at your own behest ? 

Mr. Bergen. I was appointed by this committee along with these 
other gentlemen. 

Senator McKellar. The committee is bearing your expense? 

Mr. Bergen. I have contributed very largely. 

Senator Smith. He is the expense bearer. 

Mr. Bergen. I have contributed $100; W. A. Weems contributed 
$100 and Mr. Beese $50, and so on down—some of them a dollar. 


LAND FOE AETILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


131 


Senator McKellar. In other words, it is a country county, the 
people are not wealthy, but they all want to stay there; they have 
their churches and homes and graveyards there and schoolhouses 
there, and they want to stay there—is that the idea? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. If I were taking the attitude of some of 
them and wanted to unload on the Government a lot of stuff on the 
Government* and the Government should pay the prices timber is 
bringing, I could realize a considerable sum. 

Senator McKellar. You could sell out to the Government as well 
. as anybody else ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; because I think the records of the Gov¬ 
ernment will show the deeds I have to this stuff and my holdings 
would bring me half a million dollars. 

Senator McKellar. The Government would pay more than a 
private individual ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. And if this thing went through your hold¬ 
ing would bring half a million dollars? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I have 50,000,000 feet of standing timber, 
and the price for roofers 1 by 4 by 12 has been fixed by the Gov¬ 
ernment at $24 a thousand, and I have shipped over 2,0(30,000 feet, 
mostly to the Government, since September 1. All they would have 
to do is to count it up. The timber is there. 

Senator Thomas. In other words, if the reservation is taken over, 
it would be a source of profit instead of loss to you ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. You would have a claim for prospective 
profits ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. We have been bothered a great deal by 
the disorganization of labor. The newspapers have been telling 
the people they would have to get out. So, as a loyal citizen, hav¬ 
ing my family there and living there and owning property outside 
of the reservation land and town property, and having gotten this 
plant there, I have had this trust conferred on me by the citizens 
at a mass meeting and I have tried to do what I could. 

Senator Smith. You speak of a mass meeting. How many peo¬ 
ple were at the meeting? 

Mr. Bergen. In Cusseta in Chattahoochee County? 

Senator Smith. Yes. 

Mr. Bergen. There were quite a number at the school house; 
the seats were pretty well filled; it is a small school house in a 
small town. 

Senator Smith. You can not. be mere definite—were there 50 
people there? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I would say two or three hundred. 

The Chairman. Were they people of the town or resident land- 
owners ? 

Mr. Bergen. Why, there were some people of the town who were 
affected, because this site is just five-eights of a mile from the line 
of the town. 

Senator Sutherland. It affects the taxing power? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; the whole town is affected. The county 
commissioners themselves, or the chairman, appointed this com¬ 
mittee. 


132 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Smith. You spoke of having a conversation with Con¬ 
gressman Wright and he said to you that if the land was adjusted 
in a satisfactory location and exempted some of these bottom lands, 
he would be glad to see it done ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. But Col. Eames studied the land there and studied 
the plat and he said he would be glad to do it if he could, but that 
the interests of the Government required the land he had mapped out. 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; and if I have misquoted any gentleman 
here- 

Senator Smith. That is what I understood you to say. He put 
it upon the ground that he could not modify these lines to any 
extent without yielding some of the desirability of the land for the 
governmental purposes intended ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; he said the Government had sent him there 
for that purpose, and while he was conscientious about it, lie believed 
our position was right from our standpoint, but there 1 would not- 

Senator Smith. From the Government’s standpoint and the needs 
of the Army, it required the territory he had mapped out? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. You own the timber rights on a considerable 
part of this land, or your company does? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. What per cent of the people who live out on that 
land have you talked to? 

Mr. Bergen. Well, now, that is pretty hard for me to answer. 

Senator Smith. Don’t you know that a great many of them have 
moved off or have made arrangements to move? 

Mr. Bergen. I know that a great many of the tenants—I go out 
through that territory and I think I know it—it is principally ten¬ 
ants, as far as my knowledge goes. 

Senator Smith. Have not a good deal more than half the people 
who lived there moved out? 

Mr. Bergen. I do not think so. 

Senator Smith. When were you there last? Have you been all 
over it ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, in both Chattahoochee and Muscogee Counties. 

Senator Smith. I am talking about Chattahoochee County. 

Mr. Bergen. Well, I pass through in the car on the roads, and, of 
course, these people come in and confer with us and I see them often. 
They have to advise with us about coming to Washington and things 
like that. 

Senator Smith. Quite a few have’moved off, have they not? 

Mr. Bergen. Not the landowners, to my knowledge. 

Senator Smith. Well, the people who live out there? 

Mr. Bergen. Negroes and tenants only. 

Senator Smith. A large part of them have all left, anyhow. 

Mr. Bergen. I do not know what proportion, from my own knowl- 
elsre. I know of 8,000 acres owned by W. A. Weems, that I talked 
with him recently about, and he said lie still has his land. Mr. Van 
Horn is another large landowner, and I understand from him, in 
talking with him, that he is holding his labor and does not want to 
sell, if the Government will let them alone. 




LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


133 


Senator Sutherland. You own timber on a great many acres of 
this tract ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. You have contracts with the owners themselves? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I have my mills out in that town. 

Senator Sutherland. In this territory? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; my mill superintendent is among them going 
and coming, and we have discussed this situation because we get a 
great deal of the labor from there—common labor. Most of our 
help comes from North Carolina—the experienced labor. 

Senator Smith. What number of the men you have seen, who lived 
there within the last 10 days, who did not claim that the effect of 
the Government’s action is to take their land from them and have 
arranged to move ? 

Mr. Bergen. Will you please ask that question once more? 

Senator Smith. What men have you seen within the last 15 days, 
since the 15th of December, who did not claim that the action of the 
Government has taken their lands and who are not preparing to 
move out or have not moVed out? 

Mr. Bergen. Well, the people simply have never been—they do not 
know what to do. They are just like myself. I do not know what 
to do. I can tell you what I think about it. 

Senator Smith. I did not ask you what you thought. I asked 
whom you had seen since the 15th of December living in that town 
who had not either arranged to move or who were not preparing to 
move and who did not claim the action of the Government changed 
the title to the land, and who did not expect the Government to pay? 

Mr. Bergen. I have not talked to anybody that really knew any¬ 
thing about it, when it came to the farmers. They did not know 
what they would do. 

Senator McKellar. They are all up in the air and hope that they 
will remain there ? 

Mr. Bergen. Of course, I do not know. I do not know what the 
Government will do. I am a law abiding citizen and have been as 
patriotic as anybody. I know that I have the deeds to the timber 
paid for and have never been notified by letter to move. 

Senator Smith. Could not the Government allow you to cut your 
timber still ? 

Mr. Bergen. I do not know about that. 

Senator McKellar. Are you a party to the suit? 

Mr. Bergen. I do not know. 

Senator McKellar. And you do not know whether or not you are 
required to answer—is that it? Is your deed on record? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. You are interested in the real estate as much 
as anybody else ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; it is a part of the realty as long as the tim¬ 
ber stays in the ground. 

Senator Smith. When did you buy that timber? 

Mr. Bergen. I went there the 1st day of October—last October 
a vear ago. 

Senator Smith. What did you give for your entire stumpage that 
you bought there? 


134 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Mr. Bergen. I could not tell you without looking at my books. 
1 have bought a great many tracts. 

Senator Smith. Substantially what did you give for the entire 
stumpage you bought ? 

Senator Thomas. Perhaps that is a business matter that he does 
not care to disclose. 

Mr. Bergen. I did not think I was going to be- 

Senator Smith. I think in connection with the value of his land, 
and the investigation he would have to undergo on the part of the 
Government, in arriving at a fair value for his land, that he would 
have to give that information. 

Senator McKellar. Not unless the Government takes it and unless 
he is made a party. He has not been made a party yet, and until 
he is made a party, any statement he made off hand might be against 
his interest. He is not claimihg any damages. 

Mr. Bergen. It is all on the record. 

Senator Sutherland. There is a consideration named in your 
deeds ? 

Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. Tell us what you paid. 

Mr. Bergen. I could not tell that. 

Senator Smith. Tell us within a few thousand dollars. 

Senator Sutherland. About what did you base your stumpage 
on—per thousand feet? 

Mr. Bergen. It is just like the price of cotton. Of course, it may 
be worth more now. 

Senator Smith. Do you claim $50,000 for your stumpage there? 

Mr. Bergen. Why, more than that. 

Senator Smith. Seventy-five thousand ? 

Mr. Bergen. That and other investments; yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. I mean for the timber. 

Mr. Bergen. Something like fifty or sixty thousand dollars. 

Senator McKellar. How long ago ? 

Mr. Bergen. Last year. 

Senator Smith. If it would suit the committee just as well to hear 
these other witnesses I am going to make a suggestion to the com¬ 
mittee about procuring certain accurate information that I think the 
committee ought to have about the real number of people who have 
moved off, where the Government is liable for the land. I think that 
is a very important factor in this matter, as to whom the Government 
would have to pay for the land, and if this hearing could be ad¬ 
journed to some time in the near future more accurate information 
could be had upon which this committee could act. 

Senator McKellar. I do not think there is any question in the 
world about the obligation on the part of the Government to pay 
every man what he has been damaged. 

Senator Smith. I do not think that is questioned at all. I think 
the title was passed to the Government, and the Government should 
take the land. We say that nine-tenths of them will ask for their 
money. We say that the Government has taken the entire tract of 
land, and Mr. Minter is about as accurate as to who is going to claim 
damages as he is about the cotton raised on the land. 



LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 135 

STATEMENT OF ME. W. 0. BERRY. 

The Chairman. Mr. Berry, please give your full name, residence, 
and occupation to the stenographer. 

Mr. Berry. W. O. Berry, Columbus, Ga. 

The Chairman. You live at Columbus? 

Mr. Berry. Four miles from Columbus. 

The Chairman. Do you live in this military zone? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You own land in that territory? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you acquainted with the people generally in 
Muskogee County? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Within this zone? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You may speak to the committee as to what you 
know about the feeling of those men within the military zone, as to 
the landowners, as to the propriety of the Government going ahead 
with the releasing of the land or retaining it. 

Mr. Berry. I have heard practically all of them express their opin¬ 
ion, and nearly all of them do not want to give up their homes. On 
the road I live on, we have got, from the fourth to the ninth mile¬ 
post, something like 1,600 families who live directly on the road. We 
have got at least that many who use the road who live back off a 
piece. There is not one of those people in there that I know of who 
has made any arrangements to move. 

Senator McKellar. This is in Muscogee County? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; I have made no arrangements. I have taken 
into consideration the fact that we have a fair and just Government, 
and that so long as the Government did not take it and until the 
Government did take it, I had time to hunt another home, and when 
I was dispossessed, and could not use my home, that the Government 
would pay all I was damaged. 

The Chairman. You are still living within that zone? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. How many in Muscogee County who live on 
the land in controversy have moved out ? 

Mr. Berry. We have only a few farmers there who have moved 
out. I do not know how many. 

Senator McKellar. How many would you say ? 

Mr. Berry. Something like 10 families of landowners. I think 
more renters than families have left. Practically everybody has lost 
their hands because they have had no way to hold them. My hand 
left me. 

Senator Sutherland. Was that due to the Government’s projected 
improvement in this zone, or due to other causes? 

Mr. Berry. I do not know whether mine was due to that or not, 
exactly. He took a notion to leave and I did not ask him why he left, 
but many of them were due to that, because the landowners could 
not tell them exactly what to expect. 

Senator McKellar. From your knowledge of the labor tenants 
and tenant conditions there, if it should be decided that the Govern- 


136 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


ment was not going to build a camp there and not take your land, 
would you be able to get your labor in another year ? 

Mr. Berry. My viewpoint is—and I think the majority of them 
are looking at it in the same way—that a man is better off with his 
home and no hands than to have no home and no hands either. If I 
have a home I can get the hands. Another thing, that makes it hard 
on us, is that nearly all our lands in the Muscogee Valley have in¬ 
creased in value since this matter started. In other words, we would 
be obliged to make it higher on the Government now than some time 
ago. 

Senator Thomas. Why? 

Mr. Berry. Because the price of land has gone up in value. 

Senator Thomas. Because of the increased demand on the part of 
the dispossessed people ? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; and I have taken this view, that the Govern¬ 
ment would give me a square deal when the Government dispossessed 
me and the value of my land ought to be—for it is about the same 
class as the others—something like what I would have to pay to get 
a new home. 

Senator McKellar. Do you represent anybodj^ who sent you as a 
representative ? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; I was selected at a meeting. 

Senator McKellar. What sort of a meeting was it? 

Mr. Berry. We had a mass meeting. 

Senator McKellar. That is not the same meeting these other gen¬ 
tlemen were talking about ? 

Mr. Berry. No, sir; we had two or three meetings at Chattahoo¬ 
chee, and they appointed me on this committee. 

Senator McKellar. Was there much dissent in view or did all 
want to retain their homes? 

Mr. Berry. There was one man who wanted to give up his home, 
and that was Mr. Thomas. He lives on his home and has a nice 
home, as good as anybody in the county, but unfortunately he is not 
any farmer and would rather have the money. 

Senator Thomas. What did you say his name was? 

Mr. Berry. Thomas. 

Senator Thomas. Then he is no farmer. 

Mr. Berry. This man Thomas priced me his land. I tried to buy 
it from him and he priced the land about a year ago. I think it was, 
as near as I can recollect, $20 an acre. 

Senator Thomas. What is he charging the Government? 

Mr. Berry. I think I heard him say that he put it in at $30 an 
acre. 

Senator Thomas. And his name is Thomas? 

The Chairman. Those families that went out—moved away— 
that you spoke of, is it not true that they went out because they 
came within the rifle range ? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They had to get out? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; I heard two of these men talking and they 
said they heard a little something that made them believe the camp 
would not come, and they said they would be glad to get their 
homes back. So far as damages or anything of that kind was con¬ 
cerned, I did not hear of that. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


137 


Senator McKellar. Do you think they were damaged? 

Mr. Berry. No, sir; not damaged a bit. 

I he Chairman. The loss of your hand does not bother you? 

Mr. Berry. No, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Are you a party to this suit? 

Mr. Berry. No, sir; I have never been notified. 

Ihe Chairman. A long paper like that [indicating bill filed by 
the United States district attorney] would scare the ordinary man 
to death. 

Senator McKellar. They would give them the land. 

Senator Smith. I)o you know Mr. Wheat, of Columbus? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. A druggist ? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. Didn’t you tell him your main object in this 
matter was to increase the price of your land? 

Mr. Berry. No, sir. 

Senator Smith. That is not vour object—vou really want to stay 
on the land ? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. You spoke of a mass meeting. Where was that? 

Mr. Berry. At Midway. 

Senator Smith. How many people did you have there? 

Mr. Berry. Between 40 and 50, or 60. I do not know exactly 
how many were there. 

Senator McKellar. They were all land owners? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Resident land owners? 

Mr. Berry. Practically every one of them. 

The Chairman. Were you at the meeting at Columbus? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many resident landowners took part in that 
meeting ? 

Mr. Berry. Somewhere between 40 and 100. 

Senator Thomas. Was it raining on that occasion? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; a pretty bad day and night. 

The Chairman. Did the resident land owners have anything to 
say on that occasion ? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; two or three talked. 

The Chairman. Were they favoring it? 

Mr. Berry. No, sir; they were opposed to it. 

The Chairman. How many were there in all? 

Mr. Berry. Two or three hundred. 

Senator McKellar. Was it a packed meeting? 

Mr. Berry. I do not know about that. There were a great deal 
more town people than ours. What their intention was I do not 
know. 

Senator McKellar. They carried the meeting? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. Another thing I would like to say is I use 
the school on the Buena Vista Road. We have a graded school there, 
and I think it would be hard—I have got no comeback on the Gov¬ 
ernment as to the camps they have and where they have them, or 
anything like that—but I take it for granted that when peace is 


138 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

signed the first patriotic duty I owed was to do all T could for my 
family. That is the reason I tried to save my home. I figure the 
school is worth $1,000 each to my children. 

Senator Thomas. How far are you from the school ? 

Mr. Berry. Eight miles. 

Senator Thomas. You send your children 8 miles to school?. 

Mr. Berry. No, sir; it is 8 miles from town. 

Senator McKellar. How far is your place, that you bought, from 
the schoolhouse? 

Mr. Berry. Close to the schoolhouse. 

Senator McKellar. Since the war is over, you think it is your 
patriotic duty to get back to work and do as much work as you can? 

Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; we did not have any objection to the camp 
when the war was on, but since the war has ended everybody wants 
to retain his home. 

Senator Smith. I should like to call Mr. Miller. 

STATEMENT OF MR. B. S. MILLER. 

The Chairman. Please give your name, residence, and business, 
Mr. Miller, to the stenographer. 

Mr. Miller. B. S. Miller, Columbus, Ga., attorney at law. Gen¬ 
tlemen, I represent, in Chattahoochee County, 6,638J acres in 
the camp zone. The names of the owners of that land I have before 
me, which represents about 12 per cent of the land in Chattahoochee 
County, instead of 2 per cent. 

Senator McKellar. Will you call them out? 

Mr. Miller. J. S. Psalnumds, 1,620 acres. 

Senator McKellar. Bead them slowly so I can check them off. 

The Chairman. That will take some time. 

Mr. Miller. I can read them to the stenographer. W. A. Sapp, 
308f acres; W. C. Sapp, 281J acres; Mrs. C. A. Wright, 52 acres; 
F. E. Farr, 283^ acres; Dr. W. C. Hewell, 9 acres; Alice j. Johnson, 
202J acres; Gus Gaines, 202J acres; J. H. James et al.—the et al. are 
his mother and aunt—196J acres; B. M. Pierce, 485 acres; David 
Gardner, 160 acres; Eugene L. McBride, 1,505 acres: D. F. and R. I. 
Lizemore, 462 acres; and Arthur Bussey, 1,868 acres, all with but 
one exception resident owners on the land. 

Senator McKellar. All but a part of them parties to the bill ? 

Senator Smith. They have made two amendments to the bill and 
have added other parties. They name those they knew at first—the 
district attorney did. 

Mr. Miller. With the exception of one man, answers have been 
filed by all these landow T ners in the United States court by name. 
With one single exception, every one of them desires for the Govern¬ 
ment to take over their lands, and that one exception desires for the 
Government to take over his land at a certain price. 

Senator McKellar. How many of them are resident landowners? 

Mr. Miller. All except one. 

Senator McKellar. How many all together? 

Mr. Miller. I have not counted the number. The acreage is 
6,638£ acres. 

Senator McKellar. About 10 or 12 landowners ? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


139 


Mr. Miller. About 15. Now, the total acreage in this camp in 
Chattahoochee County, if I have not been misinformed, is about 
60,000 acres, so that the acreage in Chattahoochee that I represent 
is a litle more than 10 per cent, which is 8 per cent more than two. 
J. S: Psalmonds, whose name has been referred to, owns 1,620 acres. 
He has already agreed with the Government on a price of $36,000 
for his land. 

Senator McIvellar. How many acres? 

Mr. Miller. 1,620. There is a mortgage on Mr. Psalmond’s land 
of $9,800. Mr. Psalmonds has already bought a place elsewhere and 
has mortgaged these 1,620 acres to pay for it, and Mr. Psalmonds has 
moved or is moving at the present time, so that if the Government 
should fail to take his 1,620 acres it would mean absolute and irre¬ 
trievable bankruptcy for Mr. Psalmonds. 

Senator Thomas. Unless the Government compensated him. 

Mr. Miller. The Government could pay for his land; in that 
event Mr. Psalmonds would not have been damaged. 

The Chairman. Where did he buy and from whom? 

Mr. Miller. I happen to have personal knowledge of that, because 
he bought from your humble servant. 

The Chairman. He bought 1,620 acres from you? 

Mr. Miller. The 1,620 acres is in the camp zone. He owes a 
mortgage on that of $9,800. 

The Chairman. On that? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And he is to get $36,000 for it? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. He bought a place from you for how much? 

Mr. Miller. $26,100. I have the mortgage deed, sir, in my pocket, 
if you want to see it. 

The Chairman. If the Government bought the land for $36,000, it 
would just about give him a place without a mortgage on it near by? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And pay up your mortgage? 

Mr. Miller. I have no mortgage. 

The Chairman. I mean the mortgage you hold of his. 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; $9,800. 

The Chairman. Did you sell it to him on the theory that he would 
get this land of his taken over by the Government ? 

Mr. Miller. Well, I certainly expected he would sell. 

The Chairman. When is the indebtedness due? 

Mr. Miller. Payable on demand. 

The Chairman. He paid no cash on it at all? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. These men whose names you have read— do you 
represent them in the litigation? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you know that some of them, or do you know 
that some of them put'up money to send delegates here to oppose 

this thing? . _ _ ^ . 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I will give the names and the amounts they 

contributed. 

The Chairman. I would like to have the names ol those who con¬ 
tributed. 


140 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Mr. Miller. Mr. Pierce, whose name my friend Minter called, was 
present at the mass meeting referred to by him at the Harmony 
schoolhouse. The meeting’ was held there on Monday afternoon, 
at 2 o’clock, December 30, 1918. Mr. Pierce is my client. Mr. 
Pierce contributed $10. Mr. Pierce has authorized me to say that 
if the Government will pay $30 an acre lie will move. 

Senator Sutherland. What is the land worth? 

Mr. Miller. I think it is worth that. Mr. Christian was referred 
to also by Mr. Minter. They paid Mr. Christian $20.40 an acre. 
He has bought land elsewhere and moved elsewhere, and it would 
bankrupt him if he did not get his money from the Government. 

Senator Thomas. That is, at first he stated he would take $30 an 
acre, after he had contributed to the expenses of the other men who 
came on here? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Senator Thomas. He changed his mind afterwards? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir; he wanted more than that before. The Gov¬ 
ernment agents had an arrangement to come there a few days before 
we came here. 

Senator McIvellar. How many of your clients have agreed on 
prices for their land? 

Mr. Miller. J. Robert Duncan has agreed on a price with the 
Government for his land of $9,500. 

Senator McKellar. How much is that an acre? 

Mr. Miller. He has 130 acres. It is right near the city. Dr. 
W. C. Hewell, who lived in the camp zone, has moved and has agreed 
with the Government as to the price to be paid him, and he is expect¬ 
ing to get the money from the Government. These purchases are 
not contingent purchases. 

Senator McKellar. We are not arguing about the question of 
contract, but here is what is striking me with a great deal of force: 
If no camp is established, would you not prefer that these gentlemen 
retain their lands and let the Government pay what damages have 
been sustained—whatever they may be, and the}^ ought to be ample 
and complete damages—and would it not be better for your county 
to retain those gentlemen there if we do not have the camp ? 

Mr. Miller. My personal view is not. 

Senator McKellar. You think the Government should own the 
land and let it go to waste? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; and I will give you my reasons. 

Senator McKellar. I should be glad to have them. 

Mr. Miller. In the first place, I am thoroughly familiar with 
the conditions there—as much so as my friend, Minter. I suspect 
I know every man and woman in this camp ground. It has been 
conservatively calculated by opponents of this camp and myself that 
there are about a thousand plows in the camp zone—that is, both 
Muscogee and Chattahoochee Counties. Now, we cultivate in that 
county, it will be a liberal estimate to say, about 35 acres to the plow. 
Some say 30 and some say 40—35 is the average. That means there 
are about 35,000 acres. It means that there is not in excess of 35,000 
acres of land under cultivation .out of the 115,000. That is the 
maximum; that is a liberal estimate. I do not believe, sir, that if 
you destroy the crops growing upon those 35,000 acres that it means 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


141 


you will lose that many bales of cotton or that many bushels of corn 
or grain or anything else. That is so from the fact that these 
farmers would seek other idle lands adjoining the camp reservation 
and produce the same crops under intensive agriculture, and they 
too would receive a benefit from this camp that they do not get now. 

The Chairman. Would they not be obliged to pay a higher price 
for the land, because of increased prices? 

Mr. Miller. In some instances that is true. 

Senator McKellar. I am not asking about comparing it with 
the camp there, and the Government owning the land and keeping 
the camp, but I am asking you to assume that the Government is not 
going to put a camp there but that the project is going to be aban¬ 
doned. Assume that. 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Would you rather not have all these people 
paid their full damages and remain in your county and on the land 
rather than have the Government own these various tracts of land 
here and there, where they would be compelled to take them under 
this contract ? 

Mr. Miller. Of course, if the Government is going to abandon 
the land absolutely and not use it for camp purposes- 

Senator McKellar. I think you can assume that safely in your / 
argument before the committee. 

Mr. Miller. I have not finished my reply. I believe a camp at 
that place would inure to the benefit of every farmer that would 
have to leave the camp ground; that there would be at least 90 per 
cent of the farmers living in the camp zone who would buy adjoin¬ 
ing lands. That is a very sparsely settled country outside of the 
camp zone and in the camp zone. You have already heard the state¬ 
ments made here about the number of people living on these 115,000 
acres, which shows how sparsely settled it is. 

Now, much has been said about the river land. You can count 
the river plantations on the Chattahoochee River on one hand—on 
one hand and not oyer two fingers on the other hand. The first plan¬ 
tation is the plantation of Mr. Bussey containing 1,860 acres. Mr. 
Bussey is in favor of this camp. There might have been a time when 
Mr. Bussey would not have preferred to have the camp, but that time 
has passed and he now states he wr.nts this camp to be realized. The 
next plantation belongs to W. C. Bradley, a river plantation. I do 
not know how Mr. Bradley feels. I know that Mr. Bussey, who 
owns the most valuable part of the land, ffe in favor of the camp. He 
was not in favor of it as an original proposition, but is now. Why ? 
206 tenants and croppers, white and black, have left his place and he 
has bought a place elsewhere and paid $85,000 for it. Now, gentle¬ 
men, the main value, the main asset, of a plantation in that com¬ 
munity or that section of Georgia, consists in labor. With the 
labor gone—206 people from one plantation it is absolutely ine- 
trievable. I do not know how the Government could reach a fair 
and just and equitable compensation for these damages. 

The Chairman. There are a lot of plantations in the South With¬ 
out labor. They have had that trouble every year. In the delta 
region of the Mississippi whole plantations are denuded of their 
negroes. They have had to go get them. 



142 


LAND FOE AETILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Mr. Miller. Where this land is already vacant, that does not 
apply, but here is a man in this plight —206 people have moved from 
his plantation alone. 

Senator Thomas. I understood the statement to be that the owners 
have not left, but that the laborers have. 

Mr. Miller. Out of the owners that I represent, Mr. Psalmonds 
has moved and Dr. Hewell. 

Mr. Minter. He had not left when I was there. 

Mr. Miller. He started to move sometime ago. Mr. Duncan has 
moved and has been off his place for some time. I have mentioned 
Mr. Psalmonds. Mr. W. A. Sapp, my friend Minter said, was against 
the camp. I saw him a few hours before I caught the train to 
come to Atlanta and he told me to say, if I had an opportunity to say 
it to the committee, that he was absolutely in favor of this camp and 
wanted it to come. 

Senator McKellar. What is his age? 

Mr. Miller. I suppose about 50. 

Senator McKellar. How old? 

Mr. Miller. I could not say. I suppose about 50. T am guessing. 
Now, his father, Dr. W. E. Sapp, one of the old landmarks, one of 
the old pioneers, and really one of the great men of the county, has 
authorized me to say that, as an original proposition, he was not in 
favor of the camp, that he did not care to give up his home with the 
associations that he had, but- 

Senator McKellar. Do you think that this committee or that Con¬ 
gress, of which this committee is a part, should establish or not estab¬ 
lish a camp down there simply because some gentlemen want it or 
do not want it? Do you think we ought to be influenced in the 
slightest by that? We are here as the paid representatives of the 
United States Government. What difference does it make whether 
Mr. Sapp, or Mr. Smith, or Mr. Jones, or Robinson, or their cousins 
or their sisters, are in favor of or against this proposition, provided 
the Government treats them fairly and justly and honestly—and that 
is what the Government proposes to do? The question about whether 
we have this camp here is a national question that has no more to do 
with that local situation than the man in the moon. 

Senator Thomas. Still, T think his statement is pertinent, in view 
of what has been said by other witnesses. 

Mr. Miller. I think you are absolutely right about it, but the com¬ 
mittee, in its kindness, has indulged witnesses who have gone into 
these details. I think you should have all the light you can get on 
this matter. I think it is a national question myself. Regardless of 
what the policy of this Government might be with reference to the 
standing Army, I think every member of this committee will agree 
that the soldiers of the standing Army should be trained men. Now, 
then, if that be true, if you are to have a post-graduate course after 
these officers leave West Point, the question arises where it should 
be. That is a national question, and you will seek out a country or 
section of this country that is the best place, regardless of where that 
place is. If you have had heretofore—I do not know it myself; I am 
not familiar with these things at all—but if you had an infantry school 
of arms and other kinds of schools that are proposed to be contem¬ 
plated at this point, and which were proposed even before this war. 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 143 

it is a question for you to determine whether those schools should be 
continued. There can not be any question with this committee or with 
this Congress that this Government should have a standing Army. 
There never was a question raised as to the wisdom of Washington 
when he recommended West Point, and he recommended it in time of 
peace. It is a significant fact that it was recommended immediately 
following the Revolutionary War. 

Now, this great country has grown, and it has grown to the point 
where we require soldiers that have graduated from West Point, and 
as to whether or not we should have some school where these men 
can engage in warfare and learn how to actually handle a gun and 
go into the rifle ranges, etc., and can be made real soldiers, I think 
that is something Congress will wisely determine. It is a matter of 
detail. It is a matter for the investigation of skilled authorities—- 
perhaps the military authorities of the Government—to find the 
proper place for this camp, and then to recommend it to your body, 
and then your body will approve or disapprove as it sees fit. All 
these incidental questions about Mr. Jones or Mr. Smith are abso¬ 
lutely immaterial. You could not find any tract of 115,000 acres in 
any spot in this Union where you will not find objections coming 
from some source or another. 

Senator Thomas. Except on the public domain. 

Mr. Miller. You have no public domain in this Union where the 
climatic conditions would apply so as to enable -the men to get train¬ 
ing all the year around. I believe the w T isdom of this committee 
would suggest that you seek a southern section where the Govern¬ 
ment can have the use of the field all the year around, or can have 
this practice or this experience there during the entire year. 

Of course I do not know whether this is true or not, but it has 
been my impression that Fort Sill was abandoned for that reason. 
It may have been that they did not have land enough and perhaps 
Fort Curry was abandoned for the same reason. My information is 
from experts—I do not know whether it be true or not—that this is 
the most ideal section for a school of this kind that exists in the 
country. 

The Chairman. I do not think there is any question about that 
among the military men. 

Senator Smith. The one thing I had in view in calling. Mr. Miller 
was to show first that Mr. Minter was mistaken when he said that 
there were no property holders who had moved off the property. I 
want to show that for two reasons: First, to meet what I agree with 
Mr. Miller is immaterial, because if the Government wants the prop¬ 
erty then the Government should have it- 

Senator Thomas. I think that testimony is relevant. 

Senator Smith. It tends to remove the impression that I thought 
might otherwise have been incorrectly made, that these property 
holders, in this proceedure for condemnation by the Government, 
having been one that divested title, leaving to them simply the right 
to determine the value of the property 

Senator McKellar. I think there is no question but that the Gov¬ 
ernment will be obliged to be bound by that; in other words, if the 
holding of your courts is that this divests title and invests it in 
the Government, that settles it. 




144 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

Senator Smith. But what I wanted to show is that that indefinite 
statement about a great many disagreeing to this project is inaccurate 
and not entirely responsible. 

Mr. Miller. Gentlemen, if the views of the distinguished Senator 
from Tennessee and of the senior Senator from Georgia are correct, 
that the Government has got to take over this land or that the Gov¬ 
ernment did take over this land, you have got to pay for them any¬ 
way, and is it not a very serious question as to what you should decide 
to do in this matter? 

Senator McKellar. But the paying of these damages amounts to 
only about one-tenth of the cost of this camp. However, I do not 
want to be misunderstood. I am assuming from the testimony con¬ 
cerning the Georgia laws, that that was the case. In Tennessee we 
have a different rule. There must be the action of the court before 
title is actually vested in the condemnor. 

Senator New. I submit that we are getting away from the question 
at issue. 

Senator Smith. I think Mr. Miller has given you really the facts 
we wanted you to have. 

Mr. Miller. It comes back at last to this small question that I 
do not care to thrash out only for one reason, and that is in reply to 
these other gentlemen. My friend spoke of a mass meeting at Chatta¬ 
hoochee. I mention this merely to throw light on the subject, and 
the sentiment of the people who reside in the hotbed of this so-called 
opposition in Chattahoochee County. This Harmony School is prac¬ 
tically in the center of it. On this occasion that my friend has re¬ 
ferred to—and the only mass meeting of which I have any knowledge 
that has been held in Chattahoochee County, with one exception on 
this subject—there were 19 men present, and I can give the names 
of all of them. I have the names of all of them here. There were 19 
there, several of whom did not own land. This came to me from 
Mr. Pierce, who was present. I do not know whether he told me the 
truth or not, but he is an honorable man. He said there were just 19 
men there, and the only other mass meeting that was held was in 
the courthouse at Cueseta. 

Now, how was it held ? The Government had sent out orders through 
the military department, to have the soldiers appear there; the local 
board had issued orders for the soldiers to appear at a certain time 
to hear lectures on venereal diseases. The courthouse was packed. 
At that meeting my friend over here on my left (Mr. Minter) got 
up and announced that on the following Friday there was to be a 
meeting to be held in that courthouse of those who opposed the 
camp, and on that following Friday there was a handful of people 
there, and the dynamic force behind that meeting was my friend with 
his princely estate of 8,000 acres. He contributed, I understand, 
$100, and my friend Bergen, who is not really a citizen of Chatta¬ 
hoochee County—an itinerant resident—who had come there to cut 
timber and then move away down further when he had exhausted the 
timber—now, he made a contribution, and by friend Mr. Hewell, who 
occupies the same attitude, and Mr. Weems contributed, and that is 
how the money was raised, with the exception of the Harmony 
schoolhouse meeting, which was held a Monday or two ago, when 
$195 was raised. That is the extent of the opposition. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


145 


I give it to you as my honest opinion that the great majority— 
and it may be strange to you that Mr. Minter could have an opinion 
so widely divergent from my own—I give it to you as my unqaulified 
opinion, there are at least 90 per cent of the landowners of Chatta¬ 
hoochee County who desire to have this camp come, and want it to 
come. 

By the Chairman. What is the great interest of the city of Colum¬ 
bus in this proposition ? They are not property owners ? 

Mr. Miller. Why, it will turn loose in that community about three- 
quarters of a million dollars a month. 

The Chairman. You know that the Government does not neces¬ 
sarily, by any means, buj^ supplies from the nearest town? 

Mr. Miller. But the soldiers spend their salaries in the nearest 
town, and the farmer who lives in this zone would have a greater de¬ 
mand for everything he raises. He would get his part of that mil¬ 
lion dollars, or three-quarters of a million, and everybody would be 
benefited by it. 

The Chairman. Are the citizens of Columbus figuring at all upon 
the benefits to be derived by the* Government, or from the stand¬ 
point you are speaking of? 

Mr. Miller. I think, very naturally, that the people of Colum¬ 
bus think that they have a great site and think it would be a great 
acquisition for the Government to own it, and to have this great 
Gibraltar to be built on the Chattahoochee, just as we have that 
great Gilbraltar on the Hudson, and they have spent time and money 
and labor in a patriotic way to acquire ownership and title to this 
land. 

Senator McKellar. Everybody believes in President Wilson, 
practically, don’t they? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; practically. 

Senator McKellar. Suppose he gets the proper treaty of peace 
over there, which I devoutedly hope he will, that will obviate the 
necessity of having camps or a great Military Establishment, don’t 
you think we ought to stand by him? 

Mr. Miller. If you had a camp like this for the purpose of train¬ 
ing your soldiers, 1 think it would be to your benefit. 

Senator Thomas. I understand President Wilson wants the 
greatest Navy, notwithstanding his league. 

Senator McKellar. But you can not put it in the Chattahoochee 
River. 

Mr. Miller. I was going to refer to the labor conditions. 

Senator Smith. I do not think that is necessary. 

The Chairman. Are there any other witnesses? 

Senator Smith. Not this afternoon. We would like to give you 
some more information to-morrow—just a few supplementary facts. 

The Chairman. Very well, then we will take a recess until to¬ 
morrow morning at 10:30 o’clock. 

(Whereupon, at 5 o’clock p. m., an adjournment was taken until 
to-morrow, Saturday, January 11, 1919, at 10.30 o’clock a. m.) 

99137—19-10 




LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


TUESDAY, JANUARY 14, 1919. 

United States Senate, 
Committee on Military Affairs, 

W asking ton, D. C. 

The committee met at T2 o'clock m. in the committee room, Capitol, 
Senator George E. Chamberlain presiding. 

Present: Senators Chamberlain (chairman), Fletcher, Thomas, 
Beckham, Kirby, McKellar, Weeks, Sutherland, New, and Knox. 

Senator Fletcher. I lay before the committee certain telegrams 
to the chairman of the committee protesting against the establish¬ 
ment of Fort Kenning, at Columbus, Ga., which I shall read. 

(The telegrams referred to are here printed in full as follows:) 

Columbus, Ga., January J_l h 1919. 

Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

As home owner enter protest against construction of Fort Benning at 
Columbus, Ga. 

Jno. B. Davis. 


Columbus, Ga., January Ilf , 1919. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Protest against erection Fort Benning, Columbus, Ga. 


J. A. Gains. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Enter protest against establishment Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. 

Daniel R. Huff. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, 1). C.: 

I enter protest establishment Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. 

Robt. H. Taft. 


Cusseta, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Senator Chamberlain, 

Military Affairs Committee, Washington, D. C.: 

The women of Chattahoochee County are opposed to Fort Benning. The loss 
of our homes will bring much suffering to us and our children. We appeal to 
your committee for protection. 

Mrs. C. N. Howard, Jr., 
President Cusseta Women's Club. 
Mrs. W. I. Vanhorne, 
President Harmony Women's Club. 

147 







148 


LAND FOE ARTTLLEEY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Columbus, Ga., January 14 , 1919. 

Senator Chambeklain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

I protest against establishing Fort Benning, at Columbus, Ga. Home owner 
in reservation. 

George A. Ford. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Enter protest against Fort Benning at 


Columbus, Ga., 


Columbus, Ga. 


January 13, 1919. 


B. F. Cleveland. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 


Senator Chamberlain, , 

Washington, D. C.: 

I wish to protest against the establishment of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. 

H. E. Millen. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Am opposed to camp here. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 


S. H. Odom. 


Columbus, Ga., January 11. 1919. 

Chairman Military Affairs Committee, 

Senate, Washington, D. C.: 

C. C. Minter and J. S. Burgin are the accredited representatives of Chatta¬ 
hoochee County. Any claims to the contrary are untrue. Chattahoochee 
County is opposed to the establishment of Fort Benning. Besides valuable agri¬ 
cultural lands and the camp, it means the abolishment of the county as a sub¬ 
division of the State. We appeal to you to protect us. Please read this to 
committee. 

C. B. Howard, Jr.. 
Chairman Executive Committee. 
W. B. Osteen, 

Clerk of Court. 

It. I. Barbaree, 

Sheriff. 


Columbus, Ga., January 11, 1919. 

Chairman* Military Affairs Committee, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Mass meeting held Midway School House, Muscogee County, tonight. Reso¬ 
lution adopted expressing unanimous opposition to Fort Benning. It is unneces¬ 
sary expense and waste of money. 

Lee Massey, Chairman. 


Cusseta, Ga., January 11,, 1919. 

Senator Chamberlain, 

Chairman Military Affairs Committee, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Nearly all resident landowners of Chattahoochee County are opposed to Fort 
Benning. All except a tew are still in possession of their homes. Any infor¬ 
mation to the contrary is untrue. Columbus newspapers misrepresent the con¬ 
ditions here. We appeal to the Congress and the Senate for protection of Mrs. 
L. W. Adams and W. A. Weems. 


George M. Adams. 








LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


149 


Cusseta, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Senator C h a m bek l a i n , 

Chairman Military Affairs Committee , 

Washington, /). C.: 

Chattahoochee County opposed to Fort Benning. A limited number not resi¬ 
dents of camp area might desire to unload on Government at high prices. We 
have no chamber of commerce nor any paid lobbyist in Washington. This is 
already a small county. A loss of half its area means its abolishment. 

C. N. Howard, .Tr., 
Cashier Bank of Cusseta. 

.T. J. Gordy, 

Clerk County Commissioners. 

B. B. Miller, 

Member Committee, Chattahoochee County. 

W. A. Gaylor. 


Senator Ciiam berlain, 

Washington, 1). C.: 


Columbus, Ga., January Ilf, 1919. 


As home owner ('liter protest against construction of Fort Benning at Colum¬ 
bus, Ga. 


Webster Davis. 


Columbus, Ga., January 14, 1919. 

Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

i As home owner, enter protest against construction of Fort Benning at 
Columbus, Ga. 

J. L. Berry. 


Columbus, Ga., January 14, 1919. 


Senator C it a m ber lain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

As a home owner on the reservation, I protest against the establishment of 
Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. 


Vesta King. 


Columbus, Ga., January 14, 1919. 

Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

As home owner on reservation, I protest against Fort Benning at Colum- 
bus, Ga. 

W. S. Snipes. 


Columbus, Ga., January 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Enter protest against Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. 

E. B. 


14 , 1919 . 


Sturkie. 


Columbus, Ga., January 14, 1919. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Enter my protest against Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. 

Mrs. L. W. Sturkie. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

wasrunyion, ju. l . 

Dear Sir : I am opposed to the erection of the camp, Columbus, Ga. 
Respectfully, 


anator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C. 









150 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, I). C.: 

I am opposed to the erection of Fort Benning, Columbus, Ga. 

J. W. Lavender. 


Senator Chamberlain, 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 


Washington, D. C.: 

I am opposed to the erection of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. 


O. E. Sturkie. 


Cusseta, Ga., January 19, 1919. 

Sena tor Chamberlain, 

Washington, 1). C.: 

Only one landowner in camp area within 7 miles of Cusseta has moved from 
his home. I am familiar with this part of area. 

It. L. Harp, 

Mayor of Cusseta. 


Senator Cham berlain, 

Chairman Military Committee, 


Columbus, Ga., January 19, 1919. 
Washington, D. C.: 


We, the committee, after investigating, find that not more than 25 landowners 
have moved out of this reservation known as Fort Benning. Sworn to this 
18th day of January, 1919. 

R. L. Massey, 

Chairman. 

S. D. Snelling, 

Justice of the Peace, Muscogee County, Ga. 


Sena tor C h a m berlain , 

Washington. D. C.: 


Cusseta, Ga., January 19, 1919. 


Mr. Garrard represented ns. If camp is established we oppose the camp, 
and Messrs. Minter & Burgin represented us before your committee. We own a 
large tract of land in the camp area in Chattahoochee County. 

W. A. Weems. 

Mrs. L. W. Adams. 


Sena tor Chamberlain, 

Washington, 1). C.: 


Cusseta, Ga., January 19, 1919. 


My route as rural mail carrier lies in camp area in Chattahoochee County 
except 1 mile. Only three resident landowners have moved within my knowl¬ 
edge; all balance are opposed to camp. 

M. W. Weems, 

Rural Carrier. 


Columbus, Ga., January 20, 1919. 

Senator Chamberlain, Chairman Military Committee, Washington, D. C. 

We the undersigned ladies protest against Fort Benning, and ask you to 
save our homes, churches, and schools: 

Mrs. W. S. Snipes, Mrs. S. E. Miller, Miss Vesta King, Miss Willie 
L. Snipes, Mrs. .Tno. B. David, Mrs S. D. Snelling, Miss Hassie 
Haden, Mrs. A. B. Rentz, Mrs. T. J. Harden, Mrs. Jennie King, 
Mrs. G. A. Dimon, Mrs. W. H. Moore, Mrs. A. M. Munro, Miss 
Luella Massey, Mrs. T. W. Jones. Mrs. Susie Martin, Miss Lois 
Jones, Mrs. E. B. Sturkey, Miss Mary E. Sturkey, Mrs. Willie 
Pollard, Mrs. J. W. Lavender, Mrs. L. M. Lavender, Miss Louise 








LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


151 


Moon, Mrs. G. W. Ford, Miss Annie Massey, Mozelle Severs, Mrs. 
Jeff Thomason, Mildred Cook, Millie Severs, Miss Elmer Thoma¬ 
son, Climmie Massey, Jane Standbaco, Fannie Harden, Mrs. 
Minnie Taft*, Lizzie Brown, Mrs. Mattie Boland, Miss Lilia 
McGuyst, Mittie Brown, Mrs. A. Pawley, Rosa Briant, Sadie 
I win, Miss Vine Pawley, Mary Bryant, Adie Davis, Mrs. Henry 
Oliver, Daisy Bryant, Della Hall, Mrs. Elias King. Sweet Spencer, 
Mollie Hall, Mrs. Chas. McCord, Adelle Spencer, Mrs. Wm, Taft, 
Mrs. Oscar McGunty, Mrs. Pearce liioth, Miss Mamie King, 
Mrs. Jim Houlet, Mrs. Drane Hunter, Miss Mozelle King, Miss 
Mamie Simons, Magnolia Simons, Mrs. Butler Simons, Miss Anna 
Hunley, Mrs. Joe Massey, Charlton Johnson, Miss Fannie Massey, 
Mrs. Lee Massey, Miss Jettie Tomblin, Mrs. Mattie Jones, John 
McBride, Travis McBride, Boyd Tomblin, Mollie Parker, Lee 
Castello, Ed. Tomlinson, Walter McBride, Lee McBride, Monrow 
Grier. W. T. McBride, Geo. Tomlinson, Miss Jessie Tomlinson, 
Essie Toblin. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, I). C. 


Cusseta, Ga., January 20, 1919. 


We own about 16,000 acres in camp area Chattahoochee County. We are 
opposed to camp. Mr. Gerrard represents us in condemnation proceedings if 
camp somes to secure good prices, but Messrs. Minter & Bur gin represented us 
before your committee. Less than a dozen landowners have moved. Balance 
oppose camp. 

W. I. Van Horn, 

Miss Lucy Van Horn, 
Mrs. Mary Lester, 

G. W. King. 


Columbus, Ga., January 20, 1919. 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Chairman Military Affairs Committee, 

. Washington, D. C. 

As home owners in mass meeting assembled and still living within proposed 
boundaries of Fort Benning, in Muscogee County, we protest against establish¬ 
ment of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. We further release the Government 
of any obligation to purchase our lands. 

H. E. Miller, S. D. Snelling, Mrs. R. R. Snellin, A. M. Munro, T. J. 
Hayden. G. A. Dimon, Frank Jones, E. B. Starkey, J. L. Micord, 
Mrs. M. E. Nix, J. W. Lavender, L. M. Lavender, R. D. Edwards, 
W. H. Lloon, G. W. Ford, John Tonblin, Ed. Tomolin, Wiley 
Jones, John McBride, Dennick Rodgers, William Parker, Lee 
Castilla, Walter McBryde, Boyd Tomblin, Will McBryde, Mrs. 
Matilda Speerling, Geo. Tomblin, Joseph Massey, Jeff Thomason, 
J. L. Berry, Charlie McBryde, Bob Chritian, B. C. Layfield, 
Charlton Johnson, Charlie Helton. Erquett Massey, Yancy 
Massey, Travis McBryde, Richard Moye. Tom Newsome, Lee 
Massey, Annais Edwards, F. Fuller, Geo. Ogletree, Charlie 
Simons, Marion Patrick, Oscar Patrick, Lee Bullard, Bob Bird, 
Will Massey, jr.; Charlie Massey, Will Massey, sr.; Flora 
Felder, Jim Felder, Geo. Bullard, Henry Bassett, Elias King, 
Robt. Snelling, Will Ped, Gus Duke, Homer Brown, Nathan 
Davis, Arthur Bedell, Cliff Mahaffey, Shields Simons, Will Taff, 
Ike Shorter, Webb Davis, Jim Boland, Westley Pauly, Tom 
Pate, Charlie McCardle, Jim Hunley, Elmer McCardle, Mrs. 
Arena Taft. Charlie Duke, Mark Anthony, Will McGuirt, Julius 
Dimon, Mrs. Mary McGuirt, Monroe McGuirt, Wilbur McGuirt, 
Jesse Bryant, Acie Bryant, Dennis Spencer, Prince Sivers, 
Mandy Jones, John Ginn. Henry Ginn. Lafayette Ginn, Miss 
Sarah Taft. Mrs. Nancy Grier, Robt. Taft, Tom Jones, Frank 
Kilpatrick, Miss Vesta King, W. O. Berry, A. L. Pollard, A. J. 
King, W. S. Snipes. 




152 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Gussetta, Ga., January 21, 191!). 


Senator Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C. 

We own 1,500 acres in camp area, Chattahoochee County. Garrard was 
employed to represent us in receiving good prices if we were forced to move. 
We oppose the camp, and Mr. Minter represented us before your committee. 
Columbus reports that landowners have moved are hot true. All except four 
farmers can run their farms. Half million dollars would cover all damages. 

J. G. Wilson, 

.T. C. Wilson. 

C. F. Wilson. 

W. D. Cooksey. 

W. T. Cooksey. 


Senator George Chamberlain. 

Washington, D. C. 


Cussetta, Ga., January 21, 1919. 


We own over 6,000 acres land in camp zone. Don’t want to sell at any 
price. Mr. Garrard only representing us in condemnation court. Mr. Minter 
represents us before your committee. Only four landowners have left farms 
in Chattahoochee County. Any other report is untrue. 

Mrs. T. M. Adams. 

W. A. Weems. 

George Adams. 

Luther Wilder. 


Columbus, Ga., January 20, 1919. 

Senator Chamberlain, 

Chairman Military Affairs Committee, Washington, D. C. 

Bring before your committee the 14th instant and hearing a telegram read 
that 90 per cent had vacated. Now on my return home after investigating I 
find not more than 25 landowners have moved from Fort Benning Reservation. 
Please advise when I may begin planting grain, as Senator Smith could not. 
My motto after the war, “ More to eat and less guns. 1 ’ 

Wm. K. Schley. 


Senator Fletcher. Judge, will you proceed with your statement? 

STATEMENT OF MR. J. G. DUNHAM. 

Mr. Dunham. Mr. Chairman and gentleman of the committee, I 
do not know much about this matter, and I feel like the committee 
is entitled to know how much Ido know about it, that it may be able 
to give such weight to what I may say as it deserves, and no more. 

I was born and reared and have lived all my life until the last few 
years in an adjoining county to this proposed camp, in Marion 
County, and within 6 or 8 miles of the east line of Chattahoochee 
Count} 7 . I know, and have known, nearly all my life, nearly every 
human being in Chattahoochee County, and I know that if this camp 
is maintained, it means there will not be territory enough left within 
this county to maintain a county organization. It means that county 
will have to be abolished. 

Now, I Avish to emphasize that with this statement: As a lawyer, I 
recall that that county and a few others in Georgia some years ago 
was small and it became necessary for one man to fill the office of 
auditor as well as the position of clerk of the court. The matter was 
called to the attention of the supreme court of our State a few 





LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


153 


years ago, and they held there was no legal authority for one man to 
hold those two offices, and since that time the clerk of the court and 
auditor of Chattahoochee County have been different men. I know 
I am entirely familiar with the location of the county, the fertility of 
the various sections, and if this camp is maintained, as the lines are 
now drawn, if the property within the camp zone was returned— 
and I presume it is—at its fair valuation, it would relieve the county 
or take from the county fully half of its taxable value. 

Mr. Miller, who was born and reared in the same community with 
me—and I wish to say we have always been strong friends and are 
now—gave some testimony on Friday afternoon before this commit¬ 
tee that I think is calculated to mislead those who wish to have the 
exact truth. I do not mean to say he intended to do it; I think he 
is away above that. But he stated there was a man named Psalmonds, 
who owned quite a tract of land within the camp zone, and that he 
had arranged to leave it and had bought a tract of land in the same 
county, but in a part of the county that was not within the zone of 
the camp. 

Senator Sutherland. Bought it from him. 

Mr. Dunham. Bought it from him. That I happen to know. 
Now, I feel like the committee ought to know all about that. As a 
lawyer, I recognize that a jury or an investigating committee like 
yours have a right to see the witness, inquire of his qualifications, and 
inquire about his opportunity to know about the things about which 
he testifies: his interest or want of interest in the matter, that you 
may give to his testimony such weight as it justly deserves and no 
moi-p and no’less. 

Now, I happen to be familiar with the piece of property that Mr. 
Psalmonds owned within the zone and the piece of property that he 
now has contracted for and bought from Mr. Miller. I know its 
location and I know its reasonable valuation. Now, if you gentle¬ 
men recall, Mr. Miller stated that if this camp were not completed 
and maintained it meant that Mr. Psalmonds was unquestionably 
a bankrupt. Now, if that is so, it comes about by the Government 
buying his previous holdings too cheaply, or it means that he has 
paid Mr. Miller too much. One or the other of those must be true. 
Now, I happen to know in a way, and have been advised upon in¬ 
formation that I think is absolutely reliable, that the piece of prop¬ 
erty that Mr. Miller says he sold Mr. Psalmonds, that is in the same 
county but in a portion that is not included within this camp, con¬ 
sists of two pieces of property that have been owned by other people 
for a good long time. Within a remarkably few years Mr. Miller, 
as the representative of the British American Mortgage Co. loaned 
those two parties some money. The aggregate amount was about 
$5,000. One tract of land was something like a thousand acres, and 
the other trai t has 400 acres, and adjoins it. He, as the representa¬ 
tive of the British American Mortgage Co., took advantage of a 
phrase in that contract that, without forclosure proceedings, they 
could advertise and sell that property at public outcry, and he did. 
Mr. Miller was the purchaser at that sale, of both tracts, and he gave 
about $3,500 for the tract of land known as Ida Vesper, located on 
the Central of Georgia Railroad line; at a public sale he bought that 
1,000 acres of land for $3,500. The 400-acre tract, right north of it, 



154 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


and adjoining it—it consists of two lots—he bought for $1,500, or 
within a few dollars of that, making about $5,000. 

Now, he testified last Friday afternoon that he had sold, and held a 
demand note on Psalmonds, for $26,000 for that property. 

Senator Fletcher. Both pieces. 

Mr. Dunham. Both pieces. The two combined cost him $5,000, 
and according to his proof, which I did not know- 

Senator Weeks. How long ago did this purchase take place? 

Mr. Dunham. He being the purchaser? 

Senator Weeks. Yes. 

Mr. Dunham. Within five or six years. 

Senator Weeks. What has happened in that neighborhood to 
increase the value of property there—anything? 

Mr. Dunham. I should say, sir, that the establishment of this 
camp had a material influence upon the values, particularly on the 
property right near it, but on the outside. 

Senator Sutherland. By creating a demand for land in the neigh¬ 
borhood ? 

Mr. Dunham. Yes; you see, those people within the zone had to 
get out. They were farmers—that is purely an agricultural coun¬ 
try—and they had to have some more land to farm on, and so he 
bought this piece of land- 

Senator Fletcher. You mean he bought those two pieces now out¬ 
side of the zone? 

Mr. Dunham. Yes, sir; but only a little way out. I take it that 
that property is within 5 miles of the east line of the camp zone in 
the same county—Chattahoochee County. Of course, I do not want 
to make any statement I do not know, and the other gentlemen from 
Columbus, including Mr. Miller, were entirely reputable- 

Senator Smith. Before you pass from this tract of Mr. Miller’s, 
do you know how much Mr. Miller had done for that property; do 
y ou know that he put a gin on it within the last six month ? 

Mr. Dunham. Did you intend to ask me that question? 

Senator Smith. Yes. 

Mr. Dunham. I have it from Mr. Miller that he put a gin on it 
and made other improvements. 

Senator Smith. Do you know he spent $5,000 in the past six 
months for a gin and over $5,000 for other improvements, and that 
this sale covered personal property also of a very large amount, and 
that the suggestion of $5,000 as the cost of the property would be 
entirely misleading? 

Mr. Dunham. Senator, do you want me to answer that from my 
personal knowledge ? 

Senator Smith. Yes. 

Mr. Dunham. I do not. I wish to state to you that you may have 
the benefit of all I know and that my testimony may not receive 
more weight than it deserves, I am advised that he has put a gin 
outfit on it. He told me he did so, and I am advised from other 
people that the gin outfit was a second-handed one and that it cost 
a few hundred dollars, other than the building. Is there anythinir 
further, Senator? 

Senator Smith. That is all I want to ask you. 

Mr. Dunham. I wish to say further, gentlemen, that I feel that 
Senator Smith made a very unfortunate statement last Friday after- 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


155 


noon, and, Senator, I am sure if you had as intimate an acquaintance 
with Mr. Minter as I have and if you had known him as long as I 
have known him, you would not have made it. You stated last Fri¬ 
day, at the conclusion of the hearing, that Minter’s other statements 
were as erroneous as the statement he made about the amount that 
the number of bales of cotton produced in this area had brought. 
I wish to say that Mr. Minter and myself were reared in the same 
community in Marion County, and I wish to say, inasmuch as that 
statement was made by the Senator, who seemed to be entirely par¬ 
tial in this matter, that Mr. Minter is as scrupulously honest as any 
man in the world, and I do not think I pay him a compliment that 
he does not deserve when I say that he would swear to his own hurt, 
and I am sure that every gentleman who appears here from Colum¬ 
bus will be just as complimentary to him as I have been. From his 
general reputation and my personal knowledge, I think he is in¬ 
capable of making a dishonest statement. 

The Chairman. I think he explained his figures. He made the 
same mistake that one of the members of the committee made. 

Senator Smith. I meant no reflection upon the integrity of Mr. 
Minter at all. I showed he was mistaken about his cotton figures, 
and I also criticized his estimate of the size of his meetings, and the 
attitude of the people upon the reservation. 

Mr. Dunham. Senator, I am glad you said that. Now, if Mr. Min¬ 
ter is as good a man as I think he is—and I am sure that every gen¬ 
tleman from Columbus has the same high estimate of him as I have— 
if it is, he told you that he represented practically every interest in 
Chattahoochee County included in the camp zone. He said 98 per 
cent of the people opposed this camp. That is the truth, or it is not 
true—one or the other. He said he made the statement on his own 
personal information. If it is the truth*, it means that the people in 
that county are practically a unit against this proposition. If it is 
not the truth, of course it should not have any influence at all with 
you gentlemen. 

I do not know that there is anything else, gentlemen, that I could 
say to the committee. 

Senator McKellar. What is your own v\ew of that statement of 
98 per cent ? 

Mr. Dunham. Whether they want it or not? 

Senator McKellar. Yes. 

Mr. Dunham. It so happens that I am temporarily in Washington, 
in the employ of the Federal Trade Commission, but I made a trip 
through Georgia and through that immediate section. I was at my 
home county, and in Chattahoochee County on the 15th day of last 
month, and my information was that the whole community was op¬ 
posed to it—every human being I saw was opposed to it. Now, they say 
that those who are not opposed to it are those who have, by being 
notified that they must vacate, and that the thing has been established 
and the Government would want possession of the property before 
they could begin the preparation of a crop, had bought elsewhere and 
moved to some other community or made arrangements to that end. 
I think this, gentlemen, being familiar with the season at which you 
have to begin the preparation of your crop—and that is all that that 
section is engaged in, an agricultural community—that if they do not 


156 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


start now they can not make a crop this year, and I think it is highly 
important that these people should know just as quickly as your com¬ 
mittee can reach a conclusion, whether they must move or whether 
they will be permitted to stay there, else their damage will be very 
much increased by any delay. I think if you delay it 30 or 60 days, 
they will not be able to make a crop on their farms. If they stay 
there now, they can do it. 

These gentlemen say if the camp zone is to be abandoned, and the}- 
are to retain possession of their property, they do not want damages, 
and they can go ahead and make a crop and they will not sustain any 
substantial damages. 

Senator Smith. Have you any authority to renounce claims for 
damages for any of those people ? 

Mr. Dunham. None in the .world. I say they stated that to me. I 
have no authority. 

Senator Smith. That is all. 

Mr. Minter. Mr. Chairman, we have one other witness. He paid 
his own way up here—Mr. W. C. Schley. 

STATEMENT OF MR. W. C. SCHLEY. 

Mr. Schley. Mr. Chairman, what I would like to get is some ii> 
formation. 

The Chairman. You may make any statement you desire, Mr. 
Schley. 

Mr. Schley. Well, I am placed in a position now where I find 
that I never was before—I do not know what I can do. I have stated 
that I did not want to claim any damages, but I do want to know 
when I can go to work. I am an old man, and never at any time up 
to this day in my life has it ever happened that I did not know what 
I could do. I telegraphed our Senator, asking him when I could 
plant my corn or plant my grain—I should have said grain; I get 
them mixed every now and then—and here is his telegram in reply. 
I offer that in evidence. 

Senator Smith. I will read it. 

Mr. Schley. Oh, Senator, you will not recollect what it is about. 

Senator Smith (reading). “ I am unable to advise you.” 

Mr. Schley. I made this trip up here, gentlemen, to find if the 
gentlemen of this committee can tell me whether I can go to work 
or not. I am not here to give you any advice. I live right in that 
condemned zone. 

Senator McKellar. Do you want the Government to take your 
land or not ? 

Mr. Schley. No, sir; for God’s sake, don’t do that. 

Senator McKellar. Hoav do your neighbors feel about it? 

Mr. Schley. A majority of them are with me. I have not got any 
home and they have not got any. Here, I will show you a picture 
[exhibiting photograph]. That [indicating] is where I moved to 
and here is where I used to reside. You can see the beautiful lands. 
I do not think the Government needs it. I have barns and houses 
and personal property there that I do not think the Government 
wants. Of course, if the Government needs anything I have, it can 
have it. I would not raise my boys to be slackers; but I do not be¬ 
lieve the Government wants my property. 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 157 

Senator McKellar. Do you own this home [exhibiting photo¬ 
graph] ? 

Mr. Schlef . Yes, sir; that is my home, and all I have is right 
down there. I own something over 2,000 acres. 

Senator McKellar. You want to keep those pictures, I imagine? 

Mr: Schley. Yes, sir. You will notice there is my wife sitting 
down, and you see me standing up holding a horse [indicating on 
photograph]. 

Senator McKellar. But you want to remain there? 

Mr. Schley. Yes, sir; but if it is necessary I will work for the 
Government and feed myself and clothe myself. I raise sheep and 
wool and everything—cattle and horses. But I hope to God they 
are not all gone. If you can tell me, Mr. Chairman, when I can go 
home and go to work, then I will be satisfied. 

The Chairman. 1 think this committee will be able to determine 
this matter within the next two days, if we get all the evidence in here. 

Mr. Schley. I have been offered a fabulous price for a portion of 
my property. You see that rock [exhibiting]. I call that an oyster— 
a petrified oyster. That came off my property. I don’t want anything 
at all from the Government; all I want to know is when I can go to 
work. It is this suspense that is hurting us. 

This cane that I hold in my hand was gotten right off of my land. 
It is an oddity, don’t you think? It might be that I am an oddity, 
but I am at least honest. 

Senator McKellar. Suppose you could sell your home to the Gov¬ 
ernment for a big price? 

Mr. Schley. I would rather keep it. I don’t want a high price 
from the Government. I tr}' to do what is right. 

The Chairman. I suppose if it were necessary you would give it to 
the Government? 

Mr. Schley. Yes, sir; I can live on my own personal property, my 
war-savings stamps, etc. I have made a price on my property to the 
Government. Here is my letter. 

Senator McKellar. I will read it for you. [Beading] : 

Columbus, Ga., December 10, 1918. 

Replying to your request, I desire to offer my lands in Muskogee and Chat¬ 
tahoochee Counties, containing something over 2,000 acres, for the sum of $100 
per acre. 

My land is improved, containing dwellings, barns, bridges, etc. I also have 
valuable water rights or power rights on Upatoi Creek. 

I would prefer not to sell at all. 

W. C. Schley. 

A Voice. We have a petition containing 150 names, about 125 of 
whom are landowners within the reservation, which we would like to 
have go into the record. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

(The petition mentioned is here printed as follows:) 

MUSCOGEE AND CHATTAHOOCHEE COUNTIES, GA. 

To the Secretary of War, 

Washington, D. C. 

Dear Sir: We, the undersigned citizen of Muscogee and Chattahoochee 
Counties, do earnestly express and enter our protest against the condemnation 
by the United States Government of 115,000 acres of very valuable agricultural 


158 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


lands within the two counties known as Fort Kenning for a military reserva¬ 
tion, and hereby most respectfully petition the War Department to protect the 
8,000 people living within the camp zone in their property rights, now that the 
war has ended and the emergency does not exist: 

O. E. Patrick, F. M. Patrick, R. L. Massey, E. L. Massey, C. J. Taft', 
E. C. Nix, F. E. Taft, W. M. Taft, W. D. Anderson, .Take Janson, 
Tom Brooks, Oliver Brown, N. F. Williams, H. L. Lockhart, 
Bimes William, J. M. Culverhouse, J. D. Amerson, L. B. Bell, 

L. L. Lockhart, Frank Phillips, G. L. McCardel, W. N. Peed, 
TV. G. Corter, J. W. Massey, W. H. Massey, W. L. Dovis, Wyley 
Jones, T. W. Jones, Aline Thomesson, J. W. Ginn, Bob Kimbers, 
Julius Dimon, M. E. McGuyrt, P. S. Siners, L. Bullard, IT. Bos- 
sett, Robert Bullard, Will Bullard, S. B. Simons, .T. B. Briant, 
S. B. Simons., jr., M. It. Comer, Eugene Brown, Robert Eelbeck, 
John Thomas, J. E. Massey, W. Y. Massey, B. W. Parker, Win. 
K. Schley, C. E. McBride, E. L. King, S. W. McGuyrt, Isham 
Porter, M. A. Anthony, A. B. Taft, Thomas C. Rutland, J. E. 
Hurley, Sam D. Snellings, Mrs. R. It. Snellings, T. D. Hunter, 

G. J. Thomason, J. H. Oliver, Daniel P. Darington, M. T. Pate, 

H. P. Ritch, Clias. W. Duke, J. It. Snellings, T. H. Talbot. G. B. 
Anglin, W. L. McFarlin, J. M. Tallet, H. .1. Davis, T. D. Davis, 
C. F. Simons, Z. W. Garrett, W. H. Bickley, C. G. Lee, A. M. 
Munro, E. T. Tomblin, H. C. Peck, J. G. Tomblin, M. M. Greer, 
B. T. Talbot, J. W. Livingston, F. W Johnson, J. E. McBride, 

E. C. McBride, H. E. Lockhart, H. F. Hughes, G. H. Ellis, 
K. H. Ellis, H. H. Ellis, Aubrey Ellis, N. Oliver, J. It. McClung, 
B. A. Willis, J. W. Murray, jr., W. T. McBride, A. G. Gomell, 

F. B. Tomblin, jr., J. T. McBride, J. L. Willis, J. W. Martin, 
F. Andrews, jr., D. A. Andrews, J. O. Taller, W. S. Russ, It. H. 
Taft, L. Lewin, S. C. Massey, J. M. Thornton, A. J. Floyd, 

M. B. Goble, J. W. Patrick, F. J. Kinard, W. H. Moon, W. D. 
McGuirt, W. S. Snipes, Tester King, T. J. Haden, Jno. B. 
David, E. B. Sturkie, Mrs. D. B. Sturkie, E. M. Howell, G. A. 
Ogletree, Wm. Massey, sr., It. A. Moye, J. T. Newsome and 
sisters, G. W. Tomblin, Matilda Spurlin, Homer Jones, Bartow 
Tomblin, J. J. McBride, E. W. Tomblin, it. L. Tomblin, J. W. 
Driboe, Lee Castor, Mille Castor, ,T. D. Dukes, Arthur Bedell, 
Leea Mays, W. A. Parker, T. .T. Driver, Eddie Bedell, W. H. 
Justus, C. D. Rodgers, T. C. Rodgers, Walter McBride. Mrs 
S. C. Parker, J. L. Ivey, S. H. Elliott, W. E. Colwell. 

Senator Smith. Mr. Miller would like to make a few remarks. 
The Chairman. Be as brief as you can, please, Mr. Miller. 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen—— 

Senator Smith. What did yon pay for your ground? 

Mr. Miller. I bought this place—it is 100 acres less than Mr. 
Dunham told you about. It contains 1,305 acres. It cost me $3,500 
for one tract and $1,500 for the other, as Judge Dunham stated. 
Since that time I have cleared it up and built on it; I have cleared 
up and ditched 200 acres of alluvial bottom land, as fine as there is 
in the Chattahoochee River Valley. It must have cost me not less— 

I want to be as conservative about it as possible—not less than $25 
or $30 an acre to clear it and ditch it. Since that time I have built 

II new houses on it, with tongue-and-groove flooring in the houses, 
with brick foundations, with cypress shingles on the houses. These 
houses run from three to six rooms, and they are all occupied. 
This gin mill I bought—there are three gins instead of one. 

Senator Warren. Are those houses occupied by officers of the 
Army ? 

Mr. Miller. Occupied by tenants. 

Senator Smith. This is the piece of ground he sold to this man 
about whom we have been talking, who owned land inside of the 
reservation. 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 159 

Senator McKellar. If your property is worth that, how will you 
be hurt even if Mr. Psalmonds does give it up ? 

Mr. Miller. My integrity has been questioned, and that is all I 
care about clearing up. 

Senator McKellar. It has not been questioned by anybody here. 

Senator Smith. But the statement which has been made here that 
he sold this piece of property for $26,000 and that he bought it for 
$5,000 is an unjust one. 

Mr. Miller. My friend Dunham suggested that I put in a gin that 
cost me about $300. I bought the gin from the Bank of Shipley 
and paid $800, and after I bought it I shipped it to the Lumpus 
gin factory in Georgia, and I paid them between $2,300 and $2,400 
to make the new gins. I built a gin house and seed house, which 
was a necessary adjunct, on the side of the railroad track, and my 
combined cost, as my itemized bills will show, is between $4,500 and 
$5,000. Since the sale. Mr. Psalmonds got all this equipment, in¬ 
cluding a cotton picker costing $538, a new gasoline engine that 
cost $500, with freight; he got all the gin equipment and all the 
material I had on the ground to construct a building 20 by 40. All 
of the material was there, a carload of brick, all the roofing, and 
every solitary article was there. He got all of that. 

Tne Chairman. Do you think this is material? 

Senator Smith. Just give us the total. 

Mr. Miller. It has cost me right around what I sold it for. I 
have offered, since there was some question about the camp coming 
there, to take it back from Mr. Psalmonds, and I should be glad to 
do it. In addition to that I had sold it a year ago for $15,000 to Mr. 
Ira Debois, without any personal property or buildings constructed 
on it, and when I sold it for that price, I considered I was selling it 
for less than its real value. 

Senator New. You say you have offered to take this back if this 
deal did not go through. 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. Mr. Psalmonds would not be bankrupt. 

Mr. Miller. He would not accept my proposition. He considered 
that he had a bargain, and would not sell it back. 

Senator New. Would you still stand by your proposition to take it 
back if this deal does not go through? 

Mr. Miller. Certainly. 

Senator New. In that case Mr. Psalmonds would not be bankrupt 
as a result of anything that happened here. 

Mr. Miller. He would not. He could not pay for it unless he got 
the money from the Government. 

Senator New. But he could dispose of it. 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; and probably at a profit. But the point I 
made was if he was called on for this money and he could not get the 
money, it would bankrupt him. 

The Chairman. How many of the officers here are here to testify ? 

Senator Smith. Just Col. Mumma, to-day. 

The Chairman. Are both of you officers stationed at Camp Ben- 
ning? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then there are three to testify ? 


160 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Sutherland. Have we not taken sufficient testimony on 
the military necessity for this project? 

Senator Warren. We have not taken any. . 

Senator McKellar. How long will it take? 

Senator Smith. It will only take Col. Mumma a few minutes. 

Senator McKellar. Let us go ahead then. I wish we could finish 
this matter. 

Senator Fletcher. We have heard the Assistant Secretary of War 
on the question of the military necessity. 

STATEMENT OF COL. MORTON C. MUMMA. 

Senator Fletcher. Will you please give your name and address 
to the stenographer? 

Col. Mumma. Col. Morton C. Mumma, United States Cavalry, as¬ 
sistant commandant, director of instruction at Camp Benning. 

Senator Smith. If the Senators will permit him to say w T hat he 
has to say and then ask questions, I think we will get along faster 
than if you break in. 

Col. Mumma. I am directed to appear before this committee by 
the Chief of Staff, to present to you our military reasons for desir¬ 
ing the retention of Camp Benning. I come here not with any 
brief for any locality, except in so far as that particular locality 
meets our military requirements, and I assure you that a careful, 
complete, and thorough investigation of all available and proposed 
sites leads us to the conclusion that Camp Benning is more nearly 
adapted to our military needs than any other site. I can assure you 
also that the Government does not now own, nor does it occupy by 
lease, any site which even approximates the military necessities for 
this camp. 

The military necessities are illustrated, if I may be permitted to 
read from the official cables of Gen. Pershing on the subject, begin¬ 
ning almost with his first cable to this side, No. 85, of August 8, 1917. 

Paragraph 3. Study here shows value and desirability of retaining our exist¬ 
ing small arms target practice courses. In view of great difficulty in securing 
ranges in France due to density of the population and cultivation recommend 
as far as practicable the complete courses be given in United States before 
troops embark. Special emphasis should be placed on rapid fire. 

Again, on September 25, 1917, cable No. 178: 

Paragraph 1. Referring paragraph 3 my number 85, longer experience condi¬ 
tions in France confirms my opinion highly important Infantry soldiers should 
be excellent shots. Thorough instruction and range practice prescribed our 
small arms firing manual very necessary. Our allies now fully realize their 
deficiency in rifle training. Difficult secure areas for target ranges in France 
even now when crops off ground. Much greater difficulty soon when plowing 
begins. After ground secured in France considerable time required for troops 
to construct ranges and improvise target material. In theater active opera¬ 
tions this time should be available for intensive training new weapons and 
formations. Therefore strongly renew my previous recommendations that all 
troops be given complete course rifle practice prescribed our firing manual be¬ 
fore leaving United States. Specialty of trench warfare instruction at home 
should not be allowed to interfere with rifle practice nor with intensive pre¬ 
liminary training in .our schools of soldiers, companies, and battalions. 

Again, on October 21,1917, liis cable No. 228: 

Paragraph 16. * * * Recommend that instruction of divisions in United 

States be conducted with a view to developing the soldiers physically and in 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


161 


knowledge of sanitation, inculcating high standards of discipline, producing 
superior marksmanship both on the range and in field firing exercises in large 
bodies, ('lose adherence is urged to the central idea that the essential princi¬ 
ples ot war have not changed, that the rifle and bayonet are still ihe supreme 
weapons of the infantry soldier and that the ultimate success of the Army de¬ 
pends upon tlieir proper use in open warfare. * * 

Again on November 23, 1917, No. 298— 

Paragraph 3. * * * Except for conspicuous efficiency in action commis¬ 

sions will be given after December 1 only to candidate who satisfactorily 
completes the course at the small arms candidate school. Exception will be 
made in some unusual cases. Pershing. 

These cablegrams are all signed by Gen. Pershing. 

The next is dated December 22, 1917, his No. 108— 

Paragraph 1. Reference training of troops in United States, deficiencies noted 
here indicated, first, great laxity on the part of division and brigade commanders 
in requiring officers to learn their duties or to perform them efficiently; second, 
almost total failure to give any instructions in principles of minor tactics and 
their practical application to war conditions. Officers, from colonels down and 
including some general officers, are found ignorant of the handling of units in¬ 
open warfare, including principles of reconnaissance, outpost, advance guard, 
solution of practical problems, and formation of attack; third, no training 
whatever has been given in musketry efficiency as distinguished from individual 
target practice on the range. Many officers of high rank are hopelessly ignorant 
of what this training consists of. 

Subparagraph A. Division and brigade commanders must be brought to 
realize that their duties include something beside routine administration, and 
they must be required to conduct the training of their units in the above 
particulars. All the higher officers must be held directly and personally 
responsible for the instruction of their commands, and should be compelled by 
study and application to become competent to conduct and supervise personally 
the instruction of their officers in theoretical and practical work, and should 
conduct exercises themselves until subordinates are competent to do it. It is 
not enough for division commanders merely to issue orders on these subjects, 
but they must themselves be required to teach them in every detail. Necessary 
supervision by inspectors or by officers of the War Department in charge of 
training should be ordered to prevent ignorant and incompetent officers in high 
places from retaining command. 

Subparagraph B. Suggest that important work in practical application of 
tactics and thorough training in musketry for all units be taken by Maj. Gen. 
John F. Morrison and that these subjects be presented to our troops in great 
detail by his office; also that all officers of whatever rank, including those in 
Regular Army, be held up to a high standard of accomplishment. Many of our 
high regular officers do not know how to instruct men practically and they 
should either be compelled to learn or be removed. 

Subparagraph C. I would recommend Maj. Gen. Richard M. Blatchford, 
National Army, as assistant to Maj. Gen. John F. Morrison as Gen. Blatchford’s 
experience in musketry should be invaluable. Too much importance can not 
be placed upon this sort of training as exemplified in our school of musketry 
at Fort Sill, Okla., the elements of which should be thoroughly pounded into 
our Infantry. Pershing. 

I might say, by way of diversion, that those duties which were 
recommended to be placed upon Gen. Morrison and Gen. Blatchford 
were placed upon Col. Eames and myself, and we ‘were directed 
to carry out the instructions in the recommendations in this cable¬ 
gram. 

Senator McKellar. Why was it delayed as long as a year from 
the date of the cablegram from Gen. Pershing? 

Col. Mumma. That is something I do not understand. I fought 
for it for a year. 

Senator McKellar. Don’t you think it would have been very 
much better to have done this before the war than afterwards? 


99137—19-11 



162 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. When was this camp site first selected ? 

Col. Mumma. In June of last year. The two schools, the one at 
Fort Sill and my school at Camp Perry, were consolidated. We ar¬ 
rived in October and began functioning as soon as we could get 
ready. 

Senator New. Did Gen. Blatchford visit this site? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. Did Gen. Blatchford approve of it? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. At what time was this visit that he made ? 

Col. Mumma. I think, if I am not mistaken, sir, about November 
of 1917. 

Senator New. Were the lines of the camp as they were then con¬ 
stituted the same as they are now ? 

Col. Mumma. They were not, sir. 

. Senator New. They have been changed? 

Col. Mumma. Very materially. 

Senator New. I was going to ask how much they had been re¬ 
duced, if they have been reduced. 

Col. Mumma. To less than half. 

Senator New. You mean that at that time there were 270,000 
acres ? ♦ 

Col. Mumma. As I understand it, 250,000 acres. 

Senator New. That was then contemplated? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. There are now about 135,000 acres? 

Col. Mumma. 115,000 acres are within the present boundaries. 

Senator New. No two witnesses have yet testified anywhere near 
alike as to the area. 

Col. Mumma. Those figures are almost exact—115,000 acres. 

Senator Warren. That is what is at present contemplated? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. Does the same necessity, now that the war 
is over, exist as existed before the war ended? 

Col. Mumma. I will answer, in my judgment and in the judgment 
of those who are charged with training men properly and the officer 
material, that the smaller the Army we have in peace times the 
greater the necessity for training to a high degree of efficiency those 
whom we have, ready for proper expansion. 

Senator McKellar. What camp were you from ? 

Col. Mumma. Camp Perry. 

Senator McKellar. How large is that? 

Col. Mumma. That is a Class A target range, where we teach 
only individual marksmanship. 

Senator Sutherland. Where is that located? 

Col. Mumma. At Lake Erie. 

Senator McKellar. Did you have any musketry practice at all? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; at Fort Sill. 

Senator McKellar. How large a place is that ? 

Col. Mumma. Fixty-six thousand acres. 

Senator McKellar. Did they get along pretty well with that? 

Col. Mumma. We got along up to the time of the war, when w-e had 
to expand for our proposed greatly increased new^ Army and up to 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


163 


the time the reservation had to be taken over for the Field Artillery 
as a field of fire. There was not room enough for both, and, in fact, 
there was not room enough for the Infantry school alone. 

Senator Sutherland. With the reduced Army, will there not be 
room for both the Artillery and the small-arms firing school ? 

Col. Mumma. No, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Why not? 

Col. Mumma. Because the Field Artillery in school problems and 
school projects needs at least as much as we do, and those problems 
are going on constantly. The program of instruction calls for an 
eight-hour day, and because of the fact you can not spread over all 
outdoors, you have to have a succession of problems coming along 
from time to time. For instance, from 8 to 9 o’clock there will be 
one group covering an entire area, and then they will move from one 
area to another and take up the program of problems arranged for 
the particular day, and that is why we need what is apparently such 
a large area. 

Senator McKellar. What is to be done with Camp Eustis, which 
was designed for a similar purpose, except it was for the Artillery ? 
We have already bought that. Why could not Camp Eustis be used? 

Col. Mumma. I do not know where that is. 

Senator McKellar. That is about 15 miles from Norfolk. It is 
now being used for the Artillery. It seems to be admirably adapted 
for such a purpose as this. The Government has already bought it 
and paid for it, and why we should buy another new one when we 
have not only that but many others at which this project < ould be 
placed, is rather unusual to me. I do not see the necessity for it. 

Senator New. Camp Eustis is a Coast Artillery school, is it not? 

Col. Mumma. That is the reason I am not familiar with it. 

Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, may I suggest that 
you let the Colonel finish what he has to say ? I admit that I broke 
the rule first by asking him a question. 

Col. Mumma. Here is a very significant cablegram: 

No. 952. April 19, 1918. 

Subparagraph IF. Great battle now raging makes certain that too much 
trench warfare militates against successful conduct great operations. Morale 
troops long accustomed duty in trenches lowered thereby. When driven into 
open men have feeling nakedness and helplessness. Current great battle also 
emphasizes extraordinary value highly trained riflemen and machine gunners. 

Subparagraph 1G. Recommend therefore following outline for training in 
United States: Thorough instruction in marksmanship to include known dis¬ 
tance firing for all men to 600 yards and in battle practice after method school 
musketry. Production excellent close-order drill gain of high discipline. 
Thorough instruction both officers and men in open warfare. Small units 

should be thoroughly grounded in patrolling in all forms of - and in 

attack and defense of minor warfare. Problems for such should customarily 
be prepared by next higher commander. 

Pershing. 

April 19, 1918, was the date that I finally succeeded in having 
approved the establishment of a small-arms firing school at Camp 
Perry. 

No. 990. . April 25 > 1918 - 

Paragraph 2. Reference target practice have been informed that none of our 
troops have had practice above 300 yards. Consider this very grave oversight 
that should be corrected as soon as possible. Target practice should embrace 
instruction in skirmish firing and practical application of the principles of fire 



164' 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


direction, control, and discipline, with especial emphasis upon instruction of your 
officers in musketry as applied to tactical problem in open warfare. Request 
advice as to action taken upon above recommendations, and also information 
regarding what instruction has been carried out in divisions to come over 
within the next three months. 

And May 7, 1918, The Adjutant General replied as follows: 

Subparagraph 1A. With reference to paragraph 2 your 990, your information 
that target practice for troops has not been had above 300 yards incorrect. 
Course provides instruction to include 600 yards as well as combat firing and 
practical application of principles of fire control and discipline. School of 
musketry established Camp Perry, Ohio, for instruction of officers and noncom¬ 
missioned officers as instructors in divisions. 

And from that day to this Gen. Pershing has never sent another 
cablegram. 

Senator Sutherland. On that subject. 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Yet the plans for this school were not finally 
completed until October or November? 

Col. Mumma. No, sir. Well, the rush of the whole thing was what 
we had to meet. 

Senator Smith. Will you state your connection with the selection 
of this school and the present consolidation of schools in it, and the 
necessity for this combined work, and the advantages of the com¬ 
bined work ? 

Col. Mumma. Before the war our efforts were confined to the school 
of musketry at Fort Sill, Okla., where we sent specially selected 
officers and noncommissioned officers for a course of instruction in 
musketry. We depended upon our. system within the units them¬ 
selves to train officers and noncommissioned officers in individual 
marksmanship. The beginning of the war found the few men that 
we had well trained absorbed at once. The expansion was greater 
than we expected, and greater than we were able to provide for. 
The machine guns were also at Fort Sill—what little we knew about 
machine guns—and as we got further along in the war we came to 
the realization that we must have a far greater number of officers 
trained and ready than we were then providing for. Accordingly 
this small-arms firing school was established at Camp Perry, where 
I was placed in command, and a machine-gun training center was 
established at Camp Hancock. The school of musketry, as it was 
then called, embracing a few other branches, still continued to func¬ 
tion at Fort Sill. 

Senator Fletcher. You had had some target ranges at other 
places besides those ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; we had a few small target ranges at other 
places. 

Senator Fletcher. Such as at Camp Johnson? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; that was not in use, because the quarter¬ 
masters’ school was established there and had built over the range. 

Senator Fletcher. There was one up the coast here, was there not? 

Col. Mumma. One at Sea Girt, N. J. This school was established 
at Camp Perry, and one at Camp Hancock, and one continued to 
function at Fort Sill. It was decided by those in authortv that the 
one at Fort Sill should be turned over to the Field Artillery as their 
school of fire. They had had it at that place, but the expansion made 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


165 


it necessary for one or the other to get out. The Infantry school of 
arms was directed to seek a new location. We did; and we pro¬ 
ceeded to the point the expansion had provided by establishing a 
special training camp at Camp Fremont, Cal., from which were to 
graduate in February 12,577 officers. These 12,577 officers were to 
come to us in the newly established school at Columbus, Ga., Camp 
Benning, and from that number and by a process of gradually break¬ 
ing into and sending out from the school we were to graduate 4,000 
officers per month to provide for the great expansion then contem¬ 
plated. At Camp Perry I turned out in the five and a half months 
that I functioned there about 6,000 commissioned officers who had 
been sent to me from the divisions and training schools as thoroughly 
competent instructors on the use of the rifle and use of the pistol. 

Senator Sutherland. How long was your course of instruction? 

Col. MummA. One month. In addition to that I had sent to me 400 
specially selected college boys from the training camp at Plattsburg 
and the Presidio of San Francisco and Camp Sheridan, for a special 
course with a view to sending them back to the colleges and institu¬ 
tions which they represented as instructors in rifle practice in those 
institutions. As their course was nearing completion I received in¬ 
structions from the War Department to examine and give commis¬ 
sions as second lieutenants to those I considered proper prospects. I 
went over the list carefully and finally did commission, with the 
authority of the War Department and under their direction, 339. 
I sent these 339 men to 339 colleges and universities throughout the 
country as instructors in marksmanship in those institutions. 

Early in September the governors of several States and Terri¬ 
tories— 

Senator Sutherland. That was in connection with the Student 
Army Training Corps? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; in connection with the Student Army 
Training Corps. Early in September the governors of these States 
and Territories were instructed to send, from their States, civilians 
to be trained in marksmanship. The governors of 13 States sent me 
14 men from each of these States, including a team from Alaska, 
and we put those men through a special three-weeks course at Gov¬ 
ernment expense of transportation and subsistence, and sent them 
back to their several localities. So much impressed were these 
civilians with the necessity for a thorough knowledge of these mat¬ 
ters that 116 of them remained over for an additional two weeks entirely 
at their own expense. These men went back to their several localities 
as members of their local draft boards—a surprisingly large number 
were members of their local draft boards—and they went back and 
immediately set in motion the training of men who were in the 
next draft "to be called, and they had that in process of operation 
when the armistice came upon us. Those men took the men in the 
next draft to be called and took them in automobiles and got the 
patriotic citizens to furnish necessary transportation and took them 
on Saturdays or half holidays or Sundays and put them through 
what they had learned at this school, and so when the armistice came 
upon us the question of what was to be our policy for the future 
presented itself. After a considerable conference on the matter and 
a thorough sifting of the whole matter by the training branch of the 



166 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

General Staff, it was decided that a school which would accommodate 
2,000 students was about the proper size, regardless of the size of 
the Army, assuming that the new Army would at least be not less 
than what we had when we entered the war. This student body is 
to be made up of officers and noncommissioned officers, the propor¬ 
tion to be determined as our needs are indicated from time to time, 
and I may say that those needs would be largely indicated by the 
size of our Army. 

For the first two or three years this student body will be composed 
almost wholly of lieutenants. After that time the proportion of 
noncommissioned officers will be very much larger and I want to 
emphasize the fact that the noncommissioned officer was the first 
reservoir to which we turned for officer material when it became 
necessary to expand in order to get additional officers. Not only 
that, but we have made provision for the training, in this school, of 
National Guard officers, of selected men from colleges and universities 
which have military training in their curriculum, and for training of 
civilians at various periods of the year. That, gentlemen, is the pro¬ 
vision that we have made for the future. 

I want to s&y for those of us who are interested in this thing in a 
military way—interested in the continuance of this project—that we 
will, whatever you provide for, pledge you as we always have in the 
past, that we will produce the most that can be produced with the 
means at hand, and. if it is determined by this committee that the 
size of this project must be cut down, we are ready to cooperate in 
every way, but it is our judgment that the size of this project ought 
not to be cut down except perhaps in lopping off a few pieces of high- 
priced land around the outside, which would reduce it somewhat in 
size, though not affect the efficiency of the school. 

Gentlemen, to me the test is this—and this is the test I always 
applied when I examined a prospect for a commission, and I exam¬ 
ined more than a thousand of them individually myself—I apply this 
test to him: Was I willing, considering him as a prospect, provided 
he demonstrated his efficiency, to place the life of my son under his 
command, and would you be willing to have your sons under the 
command of men, responsible for their lives, without the necessary 
knowledge in the use of the arms that they fight with, or would you 
allow your sons to be under the command of an officer—and many 
of your -sons were under the command of such officers—who did not 
know these things, and who did not know these things because we 
had not the foresight to properly prepare for such an expansion. 

Senator New. You spoke there of the possibility of this committee 
taking the view that there was too much land included in this 
project and moving to reduce it somewhat. Now, I do not know that 
that would be true at all, but in case we happened to reach that 
point, what part of this land—I have not a map before me and it 
might be well to have it before us in order to talk intelligently about 
this—— 

Col. Mumma. I am familiar with the lines, and I can indicate them 
here. 

Senator New. What part of it do you think could be dispensed 
with to the least disadvantage? 

Col. Mumma. That portion which lies north of Buena Vista Road, 
and which lies along the tract known as the Coywood( ?) Reserve and 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


167 


lies along the road known as the Lumkin Road and Escaline Hill, 
comprising about 17,000 acres, the value of which I take, by a reason¬ 
able estimate, to be about $1,000,000. With the exception of the por¬ 
tion of pine lands in the northeast corner of the reservation they are 
all very valuable lands. Many of them are home sites. It is sub¬ 
urban property, as it were. 

Senator New. That is near the city of Columbus? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. How close does the camp site lie to the city of Colum¬ 
bus at the nearest point? 

Col. Mumma. Approximately 2 miles—nearer than that to the cor¬ 
poration limits. 

Senator New. Is the land included in that section that you have de¬ 
scribed, lying nearest to the city of Columbus, higher priced per acre 
than the land lying farther away? 

Col. Mumma. Very much, sir. 

Senator New. That would be natural, of course. But you say very 
much. Now, tell us approximately what that is—how do those values 
run? 

Col. Mumma. I am informed that some of that suburban property 
would run approximately $1,000 an acre. There is some of it in the 
reservation and some along a place called Lawyers Lane that is very 
high priced. There is a small tract in there that the M. & M. Bank 
paid $6,000 for. It is a very small tract; not a large acreage. 

Senator New. It runs from a thousand dollars an acre down to $20 
an acre in value? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Is it proposed to build the same sort of can¬ 
tonment that was built, say, at Camp Meade and Camp Upton and 
other places? 

Col. Mumma. No, sir; of course, in the interest of durability, to 
take care of the future, the buildings it has been proposed to con¬ 
struct are to be of frame with concrete foundations, covered with 
stucco, with a permanent roof. 

Senator New. What you wmuld call semipermanent? 

Col. Mumma. Semipermanent; yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. With all the temporary buildings we have at 
various cantonments which could be used, and in view of our just 
having spent $25,000,000,000 of our money for this war, would it not 
be better to use these other camps that may be used, where the canton¬ 
ments are already built, rather than to make this expenditure of 
$14,000,000? I am not speaking of the land, but of the improvements. 

Col. Mumma. Senator, I do not think- 

Senator McKellar. Are we not to have some curtailment of ex¬ 
penses by the Army now that the war is over? Unless we do, we can 
not keep up this immense drain upon the resources of the country. If 
you gentlemen of the Army do not help us out, we will bankrupt our 
country. 

Col. Mumma. I appreciate that situation, and if it were possible 
and I honestly believed there was a single location adapted as a can¬ 
tonment and occupied as a cantonment, that has the terrain and other 
requirements, even approximately for our needs—— 

Senator McKellar. How many have you examined personally? 


168 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Mumma. I have been to Camp Greene and Camp Sevier and 
the camp at Charlotte and Camp Dodge, Iowa. Of course, now we 
are getting to places where the climatic conditions made it impossible. 
I have been over the reservation at Camp Travers, I have been over 
the reservation at American Lake, and I have been over the reserva¬ 
tion at Camp Johnston, that the Senator referred to, and I was down 
at Camp Lee. 

Senator Sutherland. Have you been to Chickamaugua, Tenn. ? 

Col. Mumma. No, sir. 

Senator Fletcher. We have spent about $15,000,000 at West 
Point, Camp Knox. That is an artillery camp. 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; West Point, Ky. 

Senator Fletcher. And another one at Fayetteville, known as 
Camp Bragg, on which the Government has already spent $8,000,000, 
a tract comprising 130,000 acres. The question is, Could either of 
these be used for your purpose ? 

Col. Mumma. Well. I have not been—I have been through the 
reservation at West Point, Ky. I have never been to the one at 
Fayetteville, but I am advised they are both suitable. 

Senator McKellar. Were not those two camps in rivalry among 
the officers who selected this camp and was it not, at one time, thought 
of putting it all at one of these places? Now, that being the case, 
where there were three in rivalry and they selected two others first and 
then later on selected this one, can you say, without having made a 
careful examination, that one of these other camps that has been 
already selected and built, and the Government has already paid for 
it in large measure, can not be used instead of Camp Benning? 

Col. Mumma. I do not know that what the Senator has stated—I 
am not advised on that matter as to the consideration of West Point, 
Ky., and Fayetteville. I knew that Fayetteville had been under con¬ 
sideration. But if the camp at Fayetteville was under consideration 
it was only with reference to the location of the musketry part of it 
and had no reference to the portion which had to do with individual 
rifle training. 

Senator McKellar. You could have individual training—indi¬ 
vidual rifle training—on a tract of 1,000 acres, could you not? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; if it was properly located. 

Senator New. You spoke about Fort Dodge. You say now that 
“ we are getting up into the country where climatic conditions made 
it impossible.” I want to ask, as a matter of fact, out of curiosity, 
why the climatic conditions make it impossible ? 

Col. Mumma. There are so many months of the winter season in 
proportion to the summer months where outdoor work of this kind is 
impracticable. 

Senator New. Let us see how impracticable it is. I know the 
theory is that we have got to locate these camps in the South, where 
there are no extremes of cold during certain months of the year. 
Now, considering the fact that there are extremes of rain, perhaps, in 
some of those sections, climatic conditions which are true with re¬ 
spect to the South and not of the North, admitting it is colder in the 
North at this season of the year, for instance, than in the South, do 
you still regard it as impracticable to locate any of these camps in the 
Northern States? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 169 

Col. Mumma. Assuming that the conditions of rain in the South 
equal the conditions of cold weather and snow, etc., in the North? 

Senator New. Yes. 

Col. Mumma. Well, I would consider, then, that they were almost 
equally impracticable. 

Senator New. I should think so, too. Now, I do not know that 
one possesses any great advantage over the other. For instance, stop 
and think. We have now troops who are up in Archangel, where it 
is colder—very considerably colder—for a very much greater period 
than at Fort Dodge or Fort Snelling or Missoula or any post that we 
have or at any place we might locate the training school. Do von 
think it better, or more conducive to the health of those troops up 
there, or the preparation of troops for such service as they are under¬ 
going now and other troops are undergoing at Vladivostok, that they 
be trained in southern Georgia than that they be trained at Camp 
Dodge, Iowa, or these other States? 

Col. Mumma. I think the important consideration of this particu¬ 
lar question of musketry and rifle training is that they learn it as 
quickly as they can learn it, and that the question of whether or not 
the health conditions at the particular places—I do not think that 
enters into it except for the time being. These troops you speak of 
in Archangel, their efficiency suffers by reason of those climatic con¬ 
ditions, and it would be absolutely impossible—I use that word ad¬ 
visedly—to do that work that we have in contemplation in any such 
location. 

Senator New. You are speaking of the Fort Benning site strictly 
as a training school and not as a camp for training or development of 
men for service ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; as a training school for instructors who go 
to it and leave it again in a short period. 

Senator Sutherland. Don’t you think the necessity for this camp 
zone is really late in getting into effect ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; and I so expressed myself. 

Senator Sutherland. We had observers with the armies in Europe 
during the war, did w T e not ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. Did we have any suggestions from them for 
the two or three years that the war was going on before we went into 
the war? 

Col. Mumma. We had such reports. 

Senator Sutherland. But no attention was paid to them ? 

Col. Mumma. I would say, in all justice, Senator, that attention 
was paid to them, but- 

Senator Sutherland. You did not even increase your rifle range 
up to 600 yards. 

Col. Mumma. We sent men over there that had not even loaded a 
rifle. 

Senator Sutherland. Didn’t we have observers there in the armies, 
with the European armies, before we want into the war? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; and they made their reports. 

Senator Sutherland. We then had an army which was supposed 
to be trained and should have been trained in modern warfare? 



170 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Mumma. The French and British themselves were not giving 
attention to the rifle practice and rifle training that their later experi¬ 
ences made them believe was absolutely necessary. 

Senator Sutherland. We did not have to follow the French and 
British ? 

Col. Mumma. No, sir; but we were following the guide of the 
British and taking their experience as indicative of our needs. 

Senator Fletcher. You did not finish the answer you started to 
make with reference to the idea of the General Staff. 

Col. Mumma. The idea was, here we were confronted with some¬ 
thing that required great and sudden expansion, and we had to 
gather in large numbers of officers, as you gentlemen all know, from 
every possible source—that is, officer material—and we put them 
through a course of training, to say the least, that was improvised. 
It was very rapid and gave them only an insight, and when these 
gentlemen graduated from the training camps they were not by any 
means officers. They were only beginning to realize what the respon¬ 
sibilities of an officer were. They had to have all the technical train¬ 
ing they got after they came out of the training camps, and they 
came to us for that purpose, and I have had literally hundreds of 
officers come over to me, when I have met them in various places—■ 
a day does not go by when I am here in Washington when a gradu¬ 
ate of the rifle school does not come up to me in his civilian clothes 
or in uniform and say that one of the great things he got out of his 
training was that he was made a man who could teach some one how 
to shoot his rifle. That is the one great thing that every man who is 
armed with a rifle should know. 

Senator Sutherland. It seems very strange to me why that was 
not started before it was. 

Senator McKellar. It seems to me that if the war was going on it 
might be necessary that we have such a large school; but now that the 
war is over and you do not need that large school, necessarily, it must 
be made smaller, because we are not going to have the large standing 
army we have now—no one is figuring on that—and now that the war 
is over and you have those camps built and which can be used for 
this purpose, why should you build a $15,000,000 camp? That is 
something that it is impossible for me to understand. 

Col. Mumma. The point of difference between us is that we have 
no other camps that are suitable. 

Senator McKellar. You testified to 8 camps you had seen. My 
recollection is that, counting large and small, there are between 80 
and 100 camps in this country. There was one at Fayetteville, N. C., 
that was considered for this very purpose and was started to be taken 
for this purpose. Surely the Government has acquired it and has 
already spent $8,000,000 there to build barracks. Surely, if it is 
suitable for this purpose—and certainly some of the Army officers 
thought so; maybe you did not examine it—but if it can be used for 
that purpose, it seems to me it is the duty of the Army to take 
that place rather than put the American people to the expense of 
$15,000,000 to build this new place. 

Col. Mumma. When Fayetteville was considered only one branch 
was considered. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


171 


Senator McKellar. We already own Camp Perry, and you can 
use that for the individual rifle range. We have got to cut down 
these expenses. 

Col. Mumma. I agree w T ith you, Senator. That I must say to the 
committee. Then, give us $6,000,000 and tell us to build what we can. 

Senator Smith. I wish you would give to the committee your ex¬ 
planation of why Fayetteville is not suited for this purpose. 

Col. Mumma. Well, one of the essential elements in the establish¬ 
ment of a school of this kind is the necessity for saving time in going 
back and forth from your living quarters to your workbench, and at 
Columbus we have that in the most ideal state. We have our target 
range and our firing line just 150 yards from the living quarters. 

Senator McKellar. Can you say that you do not have those same 
conditions, or virtually the same conditions, in Fayetteville, N. C. ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Although you have not been there? 

Col. Mumma. I have a report on it. 

Senator Smith. Is it not true that the land at Fayetteville is 
heavily wooded and it would cost $100 an acre to clear it out? 

Col. Mumma. I have no knowledge of the cost of clearing the 
timber, but I have the report of an officer I sent there to examine 
Fayetteville when it seemed certain this committee was going to take 
us away from Columbus, and that officer reported to me that the 
Fayetteville site was not at all suitable; that the visibility was bad; 
that there were isolated places where artillerists could observe, but in 
our case, where the infantryman has to get down on his belly to shoot, 
it is not satisfactory; that the range we would have to have for a 
class A range is 3 miles from the living quarters. 

Senator New. You said something a while ago that seemed highly 
significant—“ Give us $6,000,000 and tell us to do the best we can.” 
That implies a very great reduction of the expense of the original 
proposition put before this committee for its consideration. 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. Now, just tell us practically what prompts that sug¬ 
gestion from you. 

Col. Mumma. Gentlemen, I was prompted in making that sugges¬ 
tion by my great desire to save to the service this very important 
school, the"one in which the bulk of the service is vitally interested. 

Senator New. And it is your belief, I take it, that we can get what 
we really need there for very much less than is contemplated here ? 

Col. Mumma. I do not think we can get what we need, but we can 
get something with which we can function and put forth our very 
greatest efforts, and I think we can give you something for your 
money. 

Senator New. Speaking for myself, I am a great believer in get¬ 
ting what we need. I am not trying to get away from that or to 
reduce our actual needs at all, but I am for eliminating every possi¬ 
ble dollar of expense that can be eliminated. I agree with Senator 
McKellar that the situation here calls for an economy of the most 
rigid kind, but I do not mean by that that I think we ought to 
economize to the detriment of our real needs. Now, what I want to 
get at is an expression of just what our real and actual needs are, 
our minimum needs. Now, I asked a question a little while ago 


172 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


about a possible reduction in this site, and you said in answer to 
those questions you thought it might be materially reduced in area 
and told where; that you thought part of it might be lopped off. and 
that that would save a million dollars. 

Col. Mttmma. In land. 

Senator New. Well, that is all right. That is a million dollars, 
just the same. What I want to get at is just where another mil¬ 
lion dollars may be lopped off here, if it may be lopped off without 
too great damage to this enterprise or to this conception we have 
here for a training camp. Are there any other suggestions that 
you can make? 

Col. Mumma. Well, Col. Eames and myself went over our layout, 
as they call it in the construction division, for building- 

Senator New. Let me interpose one thing right here. It would 
be hardly fair—and I do not want to put you in the position of ask¬ 
ing you to pare down your estimates that have been made here by 
the General Staff—I do not want to embarrass you by asking you 
to suggest something that maybe you feel you should not. 

Col. Mumma. Senator, I assure you that it is no embarrassment 
to me to suggest that there can be some reduction in the expense at¬ 
tached to this, because I have always believed so. 

Senator New. That is what I am trying to get at, what your real 
conception is of the minimum needs of this camp. 

Col. Mumma. In the first place, I have believed that the estimates 
of the construction division were in excess of what the actual cost 
would be, but they were, perhaps, in a better position to estimate 
than I, though I had with me an engineer who was certainly well 
up on- 

Senator Warren. I should like to ask you right there a question. 
You speak of estimates. When were those estimates made? 

Col. Mumma. There were various estimates made, Senator 
Warren. 

Senator Warren. What is the condition now ? What have you 
expended, if anything, on this project? 

Col. Mumma. About $1,700,000. 

Senator Warren. From what fund did you expend that? 

Col. Mumma. From the lump sum. 

Senator New. Is that for construction or for land? 

Col. Mumma. Some for construction and some for land. 

Senator New. How much for construction? 

Col. Mumma. All except $130,000 for land. 

Senator New. There has been more than a million dollars expended 
for construction? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator Warren. So far you have had no appropriation for this 
project direct? 

Col. Mumma. Not as a project as of itself. 

Senator Warren. You have, notwithstanding the law in peace 
times, which requires land to be bought by direct legislation with an 
appropriation for it, taken advantage of the liberty under the war 
conditions to take from the lump fund without any designation on 
the part of Congress as to what should be done with it, and have 
gone into this project? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


173 


Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; the money was allotted to this project from 
the lump-sum appropriation and there is to the credit of the disburs¬ 
ing officer noAv some $6,000,000, or very close to that figure. 

Senator McKellar. You are a West Pointer? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator Warren. You now want an appropriation for the balance, 
or is it your intention to take it from the same source ? 

Col. Mumma. We want this committee to authorize us to use that 
which has been allotted and which is to the credit of that project. 

Senator Warren. How much is that? 

Col. Mumma. $6,000,000. 

Senator McKellar. Allotted by whom ? 

Col. Mumma. The Secretary of War. 

Senator New. Are you a member of the board that first located 
that project? 

Col. Mumma. I was not a member of the board that first went there. 
I was a member of the board that went from the War Department 
when the matter was under consideration as a place to which we could 
transfer my school. At first this was considered as a school of mus¬ 
ketry, but then it became apparent from the standpoint of overhead 
economy and coordination of training that the two should be merged 
in one, and as a peace-time project it has become still further apparent 
that we should make still further mergers and should arrange to 
merge the tank, machine gun, small arms and infantry school of arms 
all in one project. 

Senator Fletcher. How many men do you expect to have there at 
one time ? 

Col. Mumma. About 10,000, of which 2,000 would be students. 

Senator Fletc her. How would you divide them? 

Col. Mumma. Tanks, machine guns, musketry, and markmanship, 
and automatic rifles, and 37-millimeter cannon, etc. 

Senator Fletcher. This is for the training of officers ? 

Col. Mumma. Officers and noncommissioned officers. 

Senator Fletcher. How many men have you there? 

Col. Mumma. I have not seen the returns for some days, but ap¬ 
proximately 1,800. 

Senator McKellar. Then you would train more officers there in a 
year than existed in our Army prior to the war ? 

Col. Mumma. If they were available. 

Senator McKellar. You would not expend this immense sum of 
money unless you did do it. That must contemplate a very large estab¬ 
lishment, if you are going to train 10,000 officers in a year. 

Col. Mumma. It would be 4,000 a year. The course is designated 
on a six-month basis. 

Senator McKellar. That would be 20,000 men ? 

Col. Mumma. No, sir; two classes of 2,000 each would be 4,000. 

Senator McKellar. I thought you said 8,000 officers and noncom¬ 
missioned officers from the Army and 2,000 students, and, according 
to my mathematics—although 1 will admit that I am a very poor 
mathematician, and some of my mathematics got one of the gentle¬ 
men in trouble yesterday—make 10,000. 

Col. Mumma. I think that is approximately correct. 


174 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator McKellar. Then there would be 20,000 officers trained 
there a year, which would indicate a very large army. 

Col. Mumma. That 8,000 does not constitute students. The 8,000 
are permanent personnel—officers and enlisted men, instructional staff, 
utilities, and various individuals necessary for the operation of the 
school. 

Senator Warren. What is that based on as an entire army? Are 
you at liberty, or have the staff arrived at any point where they 
can state what they propose as a standing army ? 

Col. Mumma. I have no knowledge of what the staff have arrived 
at. I have, in my own mind, figures upon which I have based this 
estimate, and that is an army of 200,000 rifles. 

Senator Warren. Which would be an army of probably half a 
million men altogether ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator Warren. As a matter of fact, from what I have observed— 
perhaps you can inform us—it is undoubtedly the intention to bring 
in a recommendation of that kind from the General Staff calling for 
an army of 500,000 men ? 

Col. Mumma. I have no knowledge of that. 

Senator Warren. All these things point that way. The amount of 
your force that you are going to have there is a sufficient number to 
make up the integral part of an army of 500,000. 

Col. Mumma. I think if each officer of the Army who is in a posi¬ 
tion to make a recommendation is called upon to make a recommenda¬ 
tion to this committee that you would find a rather unanimous rec¬ 
ommendation of about that figure. 

Senator Warren. In that case we have a right to expect a recom¬ 
mendation of that sort from the War College ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

♦ Senator Warren. Don’t you think we should get that recommenda¬ 
tion before we start on with these projects? 

Col. Mumma. I tried to make it clear that at this particular school 
the size of it is only very indirectly dependent on the size of the 
Army. That might not be clear, but we worked it out in a military 
way that even though we went back to our prewar status that we 
ought to train that many officers and noncommissioned officers, the 
proportion of officers in this student body of 2,000 being determined 
by the needs at the time, which would be largely indicated by thei 
size of our Army. 

Senator Warren. Here is what you would be establishing, Colonel, 
without one single syllable of permanent law therefor. You would 
be establishing a school that apparently was far more important and 
far more far-reaching in its activities, in its intent and purposes, than 
West Point ever was; you would be establishing, under a lump-sum 
appropriation, made for the war, after the war is over, and probably 
without legal right, with a chance of the Comptroller of the Treasury 
holding up your appropriation at any moment. You would be doing 
that all of your own accord without any legal right from Congress 
at all, and it seems to me that if the department desires to take any 
such step as this, to establish so important a school as this, that it 
should prepare a bill and come before Congress and let Congress 
appropriate the money for it, and not to undertake to buy this great 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


175 


project and dispossess people of properties, who have owned them for 
generations, and have their homes and their churches and their 
schools and their graveyards established there—dispossessing those 
people without a shred of law. I say, if you have any such scheme as 
that you gentlemen in the Army should come before us with a bill 
and let us know about it and not handle it as a war-time emergency. 
That is my judgment about the matter. 

Col. Mumma. I think, Senator, the reason we have not taken that 
course is that the War Department, during the time of the emergency 
and prior to the armistice, had already contracted, if not a legal, 
at least a moral obligation, to purchase this land. 

Senator McKellar. But we will take care of that. 

Senator Smith. I think he should be allowed to answer. He is 
on the stand. Let him give the standpoint of the staff, for which he 
speaks. 

Col. Mumma. I was just explaining, Senator, that that is the reason 
why we have not taken the other course. 


Senator McKellar. As far as I am concerned, as a member of the 
committee, there is no man to whom you have morally obligated your¬ 
self that I will not vote to reimburse to the very limit, but I say you 
can never get a great project through this Congress with my support 
on terms like this, namely, under the supposition that we are in a 
state of war and under a lump-sum appropriation th^t was given to 
carry on the war, to establish a great permanent institution anywhere 
in our country- 

Senator Smith. Now, I ask the colonel to go ahead and answer 
this question as to why they went ahead in this matter as they did. 

Col. Mumma. It was only because we had already committed our¬ 
selves and initiated construction—started construction—and begun 
the instruction of the students, and are still doing it, and there was 
already an expenditure from this sum; and whether or not this project 
is completed under a special bill or under an authorization by this 
committee or otherwise, the same amount of money will have to be 
expended, and the money comes from the same place. 

Senator Fletcher. Is there any part of this training that you are 
giving down there furnished at West Point? 

Col. Mumma. No, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. This is a post-graduate school to West Point? 

Col. Mumma. West Point could not possibly take the time, Senator, 
in its curriculum to do this thing, even if it had the terrain. 

Senator Sutherland. Is this not rather in the way of a post¬ 
graduate school to West Point? 

Col. Mumma. Entirely; yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. Carrying the work along in a professional 
way? 


Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; just as the various service schools are doing, 
like the Engineering School at Washington Barracks, and all tl>e 
other essential schools that we have established. 

Senator Sutherland. With the West Point work as a basis? 

Col. Mumma. As the educational basis, 

Senator McKellar. As I understand you, under requests from Gen. 
Pershing, beginning in 1917 and ending in June, 1918, this school 
of fire, or whatever it is called, at Fort Sill was conducted, and was 


176 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


conducted, according to your testimony, as I understand the facts, 
with great success. 

Col. Mumma. It had existed away back in 1905. 

Senator McKellar. At all events, you conducted it and conducted 
it with success, and our soldiers went abroad after having been in¬ 
structed there ? 

Col. Mumma. Those who had had an opportunity of taking the 
course at that school derived great benefit and were very valuable 
men. 

Senator McKellar. In like manner as those who were schooled at 
Camp Perry, where you were. As you say, they had received im¬ 
mense benefits, and they had thanked you for the service you had 
rendered them in fitting them for their duties-- 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. That was done at Camp Perry ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Was some other postgraduate branch of the 
service carried on at Camp Hancock? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Why change all this, that being very fine ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; fine but not adequate. 

Senator Smith. Why not let him answer ? Tell him why this other 
is necessary. He says, “ Why change it ?” 

Senator McKellar. I mean, after the war is ended. 

Senator New. The Senator is speaking about the last war, and the 
colonel is speaking about the next war. 

Col. Mumma. I have an idea that there is not very much use of the 
fire department until we have a fire. I am looking for the next war, 
all right. I do not know when it is going to come, nor does anybody 
else, but an examination of the front pages of the newspapers from 
day to day would not indicate that we were going to live forever in 
peace and harmony. 

Senator Smith. Colonel, you had Camp Perry and Fort Sill and 
had these artillery camps. M(hy was there a necessity for this com¬ 
bination of these four camps at Camp Benning? 

Col. Mumma. Essentially it is a necessity from an economical and 
from an administrative and coordinating standpoint. If we con¬ 
tinued Camp Hancock, Camp Perry, and in conjunction with Camp 
Perry, Jacksonville, for the winter, or continued Fort Sill, or wher¬ 
ever else you sent the musketry branch of this school, you would have 
four separate schools in operation. Regardless of where this school 
is located, or where these schools are located, we must have suitable 
terrain and suitable buildings for the purpose. We did not have, at 
the beginning of the war, enough military posts and enough building 
construction to house the troops we had at that time. 

Senator Warren. Are you disposing of any of those you propose 
to discontinue the use of, or do you propose that the Government will 
continue in ownership and occupation of them ? 

Col. Mumma. Fort Sill has been turned over to the school of fire 
of the Field Artillery. 

Senator Warren. You remember back when the Staff brought to 
the attention of this Congress the fact that they had too many posts ? 

Col. Mumma. Too many little ones. 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


177 


Senator Warren. Except a few on the Atlantic border and the 
Mexican border, they proposed to dispose of them, and, in fact, did 
discontinue the use of a number of them. Of course, it transpired 
they could not be sold to any advantage, and the Government still 
owns them and buys new post’s, neglecting to fill the old ones. I want 
to get from you the attitude the Staff entertains with respect to these 
other camps, in connection with the situation that you are describing. 
Now. you have the old schools and want this one. Do you want to 
abandon the other ones? 

Col. Mumma. I am not authorized to speak for anyone, but I un¬ 
derstand that Camp Hancock, the machine-gun school, is scheduled 
for abandonment. I do not think it is contemplated to retain that 
location. The school at Camp Polk, at Raleigh, N. C.- 

Senator Warren. I am speaking about those you spent immense 
sums in buying. Those that are rented, of course, will take care of 
themselves. 

Col. Mumma. If the Senator is asking for an expression of per¬ 
sonal opinion- 

Senator Warren. I only ask you to speak from your own knowl¬ 
edge. 

Col. Mumma. Speaking for myself, I think, if we should have a 
peace-time Army commensurate with our needs, as determined upon 
by Congress, of any size, I think it would be false economy to aban¬ 
don, certainly for their period of durability, these various canton¬ 
ments—not tent camps, but cantonments—in the United States, and 
I think they ought to be retained and occupied. 

Senator Warren. How about the permanent posts? 

Col. Mumma. I do not think there is any intention except to oc¬ 
cupy the permanent posts. 

Senator Warren. They are very much unoccupied now. 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; and until the regular organizations get 
back from the other side they will be, although they have taken steps 
to occupy some of these posts by sending a regiment here and a com¬ 
pany there- 

Senator Warren. They are generally companies; but the idea is 
that they will ultimately be battalions ? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; when the bulk of the Army, ifrhich is on 
the other side, is returned. 

Senator Warren. Excuse me for asking, but I like to get the 
opinion of a prominent officer, like yourself, but to me it iii not pleas¬ 
ant, that a camp, when started, is to be abandoned. 

Senator New. That is one of the difficulties that this committee has 
to face. We hear that this, that, and the other place is to be aban¬ 
doned in order that some other place may be established. Take, for 
instance, the report that has been made here about the post at Toby- 
hanna, Pa. That, I understand, is not one that corresponds in char¬ 
acter to the school you expect to establish at Benning, but still it is 
an established Artillery school, as I understand. 

Col. Mumma. It had for its original purpose the instruction of 
National Guard Artillery. _ _ 

Senator McKellar. . Well, the National Guard has beer abolished. 

Col. Mumma. Not all. Nine States have National Guar Is. 

99137—19-12 




178 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator New. You have that ground at that place, and it was pur¬ 
chased by the Government, and after due inspection by an officially 
appointed board composed of high officers, and all that. Now, it is 
proposed to abandon that. I do not know whether that is absolutely 
authentic or not, but it is one of the things that this committee has 
put up to it and which bothers us. 

Col. Mumma. Were you asking me a question, sir? 

Senator New. A question in the form of an observation. 

Senator Sutherland. It was stated the other day distinctly by the 
Secretary of War and the Assistant Secretary, Mr. Crowell, that if 
they were to abandon any of these projects that this project could 
be abandoned with least discomfort to the Army than any of them, 
because there had been less work done on it and less money spent 
on it. 

Col. Mumma. I think that was the sole basis of the recommenda¬ 
tion, and not from the standpoint of military necessity. 

Senator Sutherland. That was the recommendation. 

Col. Mumma. That was the newest one and the one upon which the 
least money had been expended. 

Senator Warren. How much money had been expended? 

Col. Mumma. About $1,700,000. 

Senator Sutherland. They were apparently not as impressed with 
the military necessity as you are. 

Senator New. I think the impression we have of the fact they were 
not particularly impressed with the military necessity of it is due to 
what they said. 

Senator Smitk. You have abandoned your school at Raleigh? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. You have moved it to Camp Benning? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. You are in process of abandoning the machine-gun 
school at Augusta? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. And are arranging to transfer that to Benning? 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. That is in process now. 

Senator Smith. Those rented lands need not be any longer rented? 

Col. Mumma. No, sir. 

Senator Smith. You have transferred your Fort Perry school? 

Col. Mumma. That was the first one, following Fort Sill. 

Senator Smith. And you have transferred Fort Sill? 

Col. Mumma. The transfer of. the school from Camp Perry and 
the consolidation with the Fort Sill school is also a war-time measure. 

Senator Smith. The procedure for the condemnation of the land 
started before the armistice was signed? 

Col. Mumma. November 2. 

Senator Fletcher. Have you ample accommodations for the people 
you have now ? 

Col. Mumma. We are in an emergency camp now—a tent camp. 

Senator Smith. And you estimate that the entire project could be 
completed for $6,000,000 ? 

Col. Mumma. If the committee will authorize us to expend the 
amount in the hands of the Treasury to the credit of the disbursing 
officer, we will do the best we can and give you your money’s worth. 

Senator Sutherland. You have some material on hand? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 179 

Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; we would rely on the construction depart¬ 
ment supplying us with a great deal of material which is there and 
which will go to waste unless used. 

Senator New. There are certain other witnesses I would like to 
hear before we are through with this. I do not think we can pro¬ 
ceed now. I was not suggesting that we should continue now. I 
meant there was still other testimony that we ought to have. 

Senator Smith. I think that is true. I want to say to the com¬ 
mittee that I expect to show you figures—first, show you law, which 
I think will be convincing, that the Government is the owner of this 
land and is obliged to pay for it wherever the parties require it; that 
the institution of this suit for the property and the actual taking of 
possession, with the notice to the parties to leave, changes the title 
and vests it in the Government and leaves only the question of fixing 
the value wherever the property holder sees fit to claim it. I ex¬ 
pect to show you, also, additional statements from officers as to the 
necessity for a camp of this kind. I think I can show you that it can 
be completed with the elimination of this very valuable land right 
near Columbus, as suggested by the colonel, and put in under a 
practical working plan at very much less than $14,000,000, or at about 
between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000. 

Senator New. Now, Senator- 

Senator Smith. I am going to present that from officers who have 
worked it out in detail. 

Senator Fletcher. What time do you want the hearing continued 
to? 

Senator Smith. Thursday, at half past 10. 

Senator Fletcher. Very well, the hearing is adjourned to Thurs¬ 
day morning, at half past 10. 

(Whereupon, at 1.50 o’clock p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 
Thursday, January 16, 1919, at 10.30 a. m.) 

















■ 














































LAND FOE ARTILLEEY TRAINING FIELDS. 


THURSDAY, JANUARY 16, 1919. 

United States Senate, 
Committee on Military Affairs, 

Washington , D. 0. 

The committee met pursuant to adjournment in the committee 
room, Capitol, at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Senator George E. Chamberlain 
presiding. 

Present: Senators Chamberlain (chairman), Beckham, Kirby, Mc- 
Kellar, Warren, Weeks, Sutherland, and New. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Is there any¬ 
thing further in the nature of protest, or anyone to be heard in that 
behalf ? 

STATEMENT OF MR. C. C. MINTER, OF CUSSETA, GA. 

Mr. Minter. Mr. Chairman, I notice here a telegram purporting 
to be a resolution from the Textile Association of Columbus, and 
signed by only two manufacturers. There are some 16 or 18 cotton 
mills in Columbus, the Hamburger Cotton Mills, the Swift Mills, 
and Mr. J. D. Massey and others. I think Mr. Massey is connected 
with a little knitting mill there. There are quite a number of mills 
there, and the bigger mills do not seem to be represented. I would 
like, Mr. Chairman, to have these telegrams go into the record. 

The Chairman. They will be incorporated in the record. 

Senator Smith. One telegram shows a resolution passed by the 
entire textile mills in that association. I have it here and will offer 
it now. 

The Chairman. They will all go into the record. 

(The telegrams referred to are here printed in full, as follows:) 

Cusseta, Ga., January 16, 1919. 

Senator Chamberlain, 

Chairman Military Affairs Committee, 

Washington, D. C. 

Impossible for farmers to secure houses elsewhere in time for this year’s 
crop. All improved farms are occupied in the cotton belt. Good prices for 
cotton has made this condition. High prices of lumber and scarcity of car¬ 
penters makes building of houses impossible. Whether your decision may be 
as to necessity for Fort Benning, those farmers who so desire should be al¬ 
lowed to make this year’s crop. Columbus people are misrepresenting local 
conditions. Columbus newspapers are suppressing facts. Only five landowners 
have moved from camp territory; they couldn’t move; had no money to buy 
new farms. Soldiers with guns and target practice moved our county before 
any effort was made to secure titles. The emergency could not be so pressing. 
Such speedy confiscation of property and abandonment of farms will cause 
great suffering and loss of property. This is not the territory for which op¬ 
tions were taken last year. Farmers in this territory had no notice. 

Chas. N. Howard, Jr., 

Chairman Executive Camp Committee, Chattahoochee County. 

1S1 



182 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Cusseta, Ga., January 15, 191$. 

Senator Chamberlain, 

Chairman Military Affairs Committee, 

Washington, D. C.: 

My husband died two days ago. Worry over loss of home helped to kill him. 
If Fort Benning is established I and nine fatherless children will lose a home 
which would support us. We will have to leave relatives and friends and 
schools and the country where he is buried. Help us save our home. 

Mrs. Eula P. Salmonds. 


Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1919. 

George E. Chamberlain, 

Washington, D. C.: 

We beg to submit herewith copy of resolution this day passed by the Columbus 
Textile Association, to wit: 

“Resolved, That we are advised that there is a disposition upon the part of 
the United States Government to abandon the building of Fort Benning in 
Muscogee and establishment of this fort as a permanent institution would be 
of great military value and also of material assistance to the respective com¬ 
munities involved, and whereas we are further advised that a large number of 
the people living in the zone marked out for the establishment of said fort 
have abandoned their homes and purchased and contracted for the purchase 
of homes elsewhere in order to comply with the order of the commanding 
officer of said fort, and whereas we realize that the direct and consequential 
damages which will flow from an abandonment of said project by the United 
States Government to the owners and others living in said zone will be almost 
irreparable and difficult to estimate in dollars and cents, therefore we earnestly 
petition that you use your best efforts to have Fort Benning carried on to com¬ 
pletion and that work be resumed at the earliest possible moment.” 

J. D. Massey. Muscogee Manufacturing Co., 

Hamburger Cotton Mills, Edward W. Swift, President. 

R, K, Webb, Secretary and Treasurer. Swift Spinning Mills, 

Swift Manufacturing Co., Edward W. Swift, President. 

H. L. Williams, President. 


W. O, Berry, 

Varnum Hotel, Washington, D. C.: 


Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1919. 


I want to say 90 per cent of Muscogee farmers have not moved and don’t 
want to move and don’t want to sell land. 


E. T. Tomblin. 


Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1919. 


F. LT. Garrard, 

New Willard Hotel, Washington, D. C.: 


As a property owner in Chattahoochee County camp area, want to be re¬ 
corded as favoring completion of Camp Benning. Did not favor project at its 
inception, but since condemnation proceedings have caused loss of all our labor 
and property owners have traded elsewhere, now desire project completed and 
quick settlement for lands. 

W. R. Martin. 


Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Tenants all left under orders of the United States Government. Under cir¬ 
cumstances feel justified in insisting on Government paying for land as agreed. 
Majority landowners will make same contentions if agreement not complied 
with. 


W. E. Cody. 






LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


183 


F. U. Garrard, 

New Willard Hotel, 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 
Washington, D. C.: 


« made tho i' ough canvass of camp area located in Muscogee County and 

nnd Jo per cent of labor moved out of area. Large per cent of property owners 


S. A. Ginn. 


F. U. Garrard, 

New Willard Hotel, 


Columbus, Ga., January l) t , 1919. 
Washington, D. C.: 


At least 90 per cent of farm labor and tenants have moved from Chattahoochee 
County camp area, and others are moving daily. Ninety-five per cent of propertv 
owners, including myself, in this area favor completion of camp project. Lands 
from Cusseta Road to river practically depopulated 


S. B. Ivissick. 


Columbus, Ga., January 10, 1919. 

Hon. IIoke Smith, 

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: 

McElvey plantation, 700 acres in Fort Benning area totally unfit now for 
farming. Every tenant moved. Some been on place 30 years. Have camp 
retained. 

Frank P. McElvey. 


Senator Hoke Smith, 

Washington: 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 


Columbus people heartily appreciate your efforts in behalf of the Fort 
Benning project, an establishment entirely essential to a standing army, even 
small though it should be, and a large majority of our people are in favor of 
it as a permanent institution. We are merely sending you this in order to 
assure you in your advocacy of the project you are supporting the view of a 
large majority of the people in this section. Information which I am sure is 
authentic leads me to believe that most of the people residing in the reservation 
are now in favor of its completion and permanency. 

W. H. Tucker, 

Editor Enquirer-Sun. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Hon. W. C. Wright, 

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.: 

Our best information is a large majority of the farmers have moved out of 
the camp area; the majority of the remaining have sold their farm provender, 
and 95 per cent of the farm labor has gone, and it will be impossible for them 
to organize their farm for this year. They are anxious for Fort Benning to 
be built. 

• Rural Department Columbus Chamber of Commerce, 
Columbus Roberts, Chairman. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

United States Senator, Washington, 1). C.: 

Your fight for permanent “ Infantry School of Arms ” for Georgia appre¬ 
ciated. I have utmost confidence of your success if you continue the fight. 
Thorough investigation shows entire camp area depopulated, except in few 
isolated cases. Whole district 99 per cent in favor of project. What you do 
will make everlasting friends in this district for you always. With best wishes, 
I am, 

R. W. Page. 


i 







184 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: 

Do all you possibly can to have Fort Benning completed. If project killed 
this community will never recover from loss and damages. 

W. T. Harvey Lumber Co. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: 

Trust you will use all possible effort toward continued development and 
permanent establishment Fort Benning. We are sure great majority all classes 
our citizens favorable to this request. Required labor can not interfere 
with established industries, as we are daily coming in contact with increased 
number laborers seeking employment. 

Cherocola Co. 


Columbus, Ga., January Uf, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: 

Whole State would suffer if Infantry School of Arms were lost. Your fight 
for it made worlds of friends for you. Keep it up; we are back of you to the 
limit. 

J. J. Yarbrough. 


Columbus. Ga., January 13, 1919. 


Hon. Hoke Smith, 

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: 


All business enterprises interested and anxious for the completion of Fort 
Benning. If abandoned this community will never recover from the bad effect, 
and it were a thousand times better never to have been undertaken. We know 
that you will do all you can to have this school completed. 

National Show Case Co., 

J. H. Dimon, 

Secretary and Treasurer. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

Washington, D. C. 

We appreciate the efforts you are using in behalf of Fort Benning. Our 
salesmen inform us that majority of people in Chattahoochee County in favor 
of Fort Benning. 

Hecht Bros. Co. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Senator Hoke Smith, 

Washington, D. C. 

Abandonment of construction Fort Benning would inflict great injustice to the 
people within zone. Under Government orders they have moved out and made 
other arrangements. Labor and material are plentiful. Confirmation the 
project seems essential. 

F. J. Dudley. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: 

At first we were opposed to location of military camp near Columbus, believ¬ 
ing it would disastrously affect labor conditions. Now find we were mistaken. 
Labor situation at this time as good or better than before. Believe abandon¬ 
ment of Camp Benning at this stage would be disastrous to business interests of 
our community. 


Lummus Cotton Gin Co. 








LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


185 


Senator Hoke Smith, 

Washington, D. C.: 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 


A few men in this section who put their own interests above those of their 
country opposed the building of Fort Benning as a United States military train¬ 
ing school. These have dwindled until their number are infinitesimal. We 
employ a minimum of 40 men and women. We now have all the help we want 
and have had all the while. 


Columbus Coca Cola Bottling Co. 


Macon, Ga., January Ilf, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Hope you will do all you can to have the Infantry School of Arms at Colum¬ 
bus completed as it means much for our Army and to our State. 

R. L. McIvenney. 


Savannah, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Hon. Hoke Smith, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Please do all you can to aid Columbus in keeping its Infantry camp. Savan¬ 
nah makes appeal for its sister city on the Chattahoochee. 

The Savannah Press. 


Columbus, Ga., January 10, 1919. 

A. L. Kunze, 

President Columbus Chamber Commerce, 

Washington, D. C.: 

At annual meeting of Rosehill Improvement Association, with largest attend¬ 
ance in history our organization, I was instructed by motion unanimously 
carried to wire the Columbus delegation offer of our assistance in every way 
possible to retain Fort Benning. We are back of you solidly, and are yours to 
command. 

Rosehill Improvement Association, 

A. E. Page, President. 


Columbus, Ga., January 12, 1919. 


A. L. Kunze, 

Raleigh Hotel, Washington, D. C.: 

Columbus is unanimously behind you in your efforts to retain Fort Benning. 

Sol. Loeb Co. 


Columbus, Ga., January 12, 1919. 

Hon. A. L. Kunze, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Members of Harmony Club, in annual session, pledge you their unlimited 
support on the camp project. 

Sam Kaufman, President. 


Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. 

Senator Hoke Smith, 

Washington, D. C.: 

Understand much misrepresentation regarding labor supply here being used 
against Fort Benning proposition. Labor supply here ample and growing in¬ 
creasingly more plentiful. Believe discontinuance of Fort Benning will bring 
serious loss to this entire section and city, and to the Government. 

Enw. W. Swift, 

President Muscogee Manufacturing 
Company and Sicift Spinning Mills. 








186 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1019. 


Hon. Hoke Smith. 

Washington, D. C.: 

At a meeting of the Rotary Club of this city held to-day a resolution was 
adopted indorsing Fort Benning as a national necessity for permanent military 
training. Your support is greatly appreciated, and you are urged to do all 
within your power to see that this project is successfully completed. 

Rotary Club of Columbus. 

Thomas W. Peters, Secretary. 


Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1019. 

Senator Hoke Smith, 

Washington , 1). (\: 

Have just returned from a trip in the camp area, and for over 3 miles on the 
road I traveled every farmer had vacated and, in most cases, bought elsewhere. 
I have been forced to vacate my several farms on a few days’ notice, bought 
elsewhere, erected buildings, and made improvements. Sold stock at a great 
sacrifice. Lost a number of thorough-bred Jerseys and other stock due to 
exposure on account of lack of shelter. My former home has been irreparably 
damaged. If camp is abandoned it will mean great loss to thousands that have 
been forced to do as I have. Trust that you will he successful in securing the 
camp for Columbus. 

A. O. Blackmar. 


Hon. Hoke Smith, 

Washington, D. C. 


Columbus, Ga., January 8, 1919. 


Dear Sir : I note with very great regret the fact that the Senate committee 
has decided to abandon the camp at Columbus. This will be a great disappoint¬ 
ment to our citizens and farmers, a great many of whom have moved away and 
bought homes elsewhere and a majority of those who have not moved have 
lost practically all their labor. 

It will not only he a great loss to the Government both in money and mate¬ 
rial used here but will lose the opportunity of developing one of the finest fort 
reservations, which will most likely be badly needed in after years. 

I trust that you will use every effort possible to have the great project car¬ 
ried out as planned and will certainly appreciate your efforts on behalf of Camp 
Benning, which will be of great benefit to this whole southwestern section and 
to Georgia. 

Again thanking you, I am, 

Yours, very truly, 


W. E. Cody. 


The Chairman. Now, what other testimony have you, Senator 
Smith ? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I have tried, Mr. Chairman, to put 
this matter in a shape where I can give it to you very rapidly and 
very briefly this morning. I have had some of it put into writing. 

First I want to call your attention to just a few of a number of 
telegrams I have received from Columbus of this character: 

As a property owner in Chattahoochee County, camp area, want to be re¬ 
corded as favoring completion of Camp Benning. Did not favor project at its 
inception, but since condemnation proceedings have caused loss of all our 
labor and property owners have traded elsewhere, now desire project completed 
and quick settlement for lands. 

W. R. Martin. 

Here is another telegram: 


Tenants all left under orders United States Government under circum¬ 
stances feel justified in insisting on Government paying for land as agreed. 
Majority land owners will make same contentions if agreement not complied 
with. 


W. E. Cody. 




LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


187 


Here is another telegram: 

Have made thorough canvass of camp area located Muskogee County, and 
find 95 per cent of labor moved out area. Large per cent of property owners 
moved off. 

S. A. Ginn. 

Senator Kirby. Do you know whether they moved off because the 
land was unfit for farming? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. No: they have just moved off on ac¬ 
count of the notices. Senator, it is beautiful land. It is unfit for 
farming now, on account of the use already made of it by the Gov¬ 
ernment. 

Senator Kirby. I was simply facetious. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Well, it is such a serious matter that 
I did not recognize the joke. 

Here is another very important telegram. 

Have just returned from a trip in the camp area and for over 3 miles on the 
road I traveled every farmer had vacated and in most cases bought elsewhere. 
I have been forced to vacate my several farms on a few days’ notice; bought 
elsewhere, and erected buildings, made improvements, sold stock at a large sac¬ 
rifice, lost a number of thoroughbred Jerseys and other stock through exposure 
on account of lack of shelter. My former home has been irreparably damaged. 
If camp is abandoned it will mean great loss to thousands that have been 
forced to do as I have. Trust that you will be successful in securing the 
camp. 

And there are a number of others that I will not stop to read 
along the same line. 

The Chairman. They have been ordered to be inserted in the 
record. 

Mr. Minter. I should like to know whom that last telegram is 
from. Most of these parties live in Columbus that the Senator has 
read so far. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. But Columbus really runs Muskogee 
County. The bulk of Muskogee County is owned in Columbus— 
the bulk of the farm land. The name of the party signing this tele¬ 
gram is A. O. Blackmar. 

Senator New. They are what we call telephone farmers. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. No, sir; they have their automobiles, 
and go out and look after their farms. 

Senator New. That is what I mean—automobile farmers. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Their whole property, in a number of 
instances, is in this area. They depend on the product of these farms 
for a living, and while they have their homes in Columbus and edu¬ 
cate their children there, they go out every day in their little auto¬ 
mobiles, 12 miles; they can run out in half an hour. 

Mr. Chairman, I only present this to go far enough to show to the 
committee not what they want at Columbus, because I do not ask 
for action on the basis of what they want there, but the status of the 
Government with reference to this matter. The procedure having 
been instituted for the property, and the property having been taken 
over by the Government, my view of the law is that title vests in the 
Government and that the only remaining question is the decree and 
the fixing of the value, and at the proper time I shall submit to the 
committee authorities to that effect. I think that is the recognized 
rule of the text writers and the decisions that where the procedure of 


188 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


condemnation is for the title and authorizes the immediate taking, 
leaving only the question of value, then the privilege does not exist 
for dismissing the condemnation procedure but you must pay for the 
land. 

The Chairman. In my State title does not pass until an award 
has been made and the money paid into the court. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes; but we contend under this pro¬ 
cedure and this act that the Government had the right to take title, 
and at once, under this special war act. 

Senator Kirby. You are just objecting, as I understand, to any 
protest against proceeding with the building by any of these home 
people. You are explaining that, and you are also insisting that this 
has gone so far that it would be to the Government’s best interest 
to complete it rather than to turn it loose and pay whatever damages 
may have resulted? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. That is my view. I have looked into 
it in large part on account of my interest in Columbus. I shall 
finally vote, not in the interest of Columbus, further than as a mat¬ 
ter of justice to them, but in view of what I conceive to be the inter¬ 
est of the Government, and my contention is that, so far as acquir¬ 
ing this land is concerned, you have gone so far that you have taken 
it unless you compromise with the property holders and they agree 
to take it back; that you have proceeded under the act that author¬ 
ized you to take title at once, under this war statute that we passed 
through the Senate, and that the legal effect of what you have done 
has left simply the question of assessing the value of the land, unless 
the parties voluntarily recede. 

Senator Kirby. We can discuss that later. I was simply asking 
the question for information. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes. Mr. Chairman, I want to put in 
evidence a statement showing that land, containing 28,000 acres, or 
more than one-fourth of what is necessary, has passed to the stage of 
agreement between the landowners and the Government upon the 
price, and I shall furnish you, without stopping to read it, a list of 
those lands and the prices agreed upon. 

Senator New. Twenty-eight thousand, or more than one-fourth of 
what is necessary? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes; of what is necessary. 

Senator Kirby. I understood this was a tract of 150,000 acres. 

Senator New. Oh, no. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. It is 115,000 acres. But I am going to 
submit to the committee that, of the 28,0,00 acres, 17,000 acres of it 
lies right up close to Columbus, and is not essential. 

Senator New. Is that 17,000 acres of the 115,000 acres? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes; of the 115,000 acres; and it is 
very much the most expensive land. 

Senator New. So, with the elimination of that- 

Senator Smith of Georgia. It eliminates about $1,000,000. 

Senator New. And reduces the area to 98,000 acres? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes; and eliminated about a million 
dollars from the cost of the land. 

(The paper referred to is here printed in full, as follows:) 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS 


189 


Land on ivhich prices have been agreed and signed options given. 


Acres. 

Price. 

Acres. 

Price. 

Acres. 

Price. 

Acres. 

Price. 

2 

$400.00 

42 

$3,750.00 

110 

$1,650.00 

192* 

$2,887.50 

1,413 

17,662.50 

176 

7.700.00 

101* 

3,000.00 

170 

2,125.00 

2021 

3,037.50 

202* 

12.150.00 

ion 

2,025.00 

50 

1,000.00 

218 

3,052.00 

lOl* 

1,600.00 

25 

4,500.00 

50 

750.00 

50 

3,250.00 

40 

700.00 

116* 

6,190.25 

105 

1,575.00 

158* 

3.165.00 

80 

6,400.00 

1 

350.00 

1,064 

32.148.25 

185 

3,237.50 

462 

14,000.00 

101* 

2,025.00 

2 

20.00 

1011 

1,518.75 

100 

7,000.00 

101* 

2,025.00 

229* 

2,292.50 

405 

9,000.00 

70 

4,900.00 

94 

2,500.00 

101* 

5,000.00 

100 

2,000.00 

597* 

14.937.50 

50 

1,000.00 

307* 

6.150.00 

708 

15,000.00 

810 

16,200.00 

202* 

2,531.25 

50 

500.00 

1,216* 

37,710.00 

202* 

4,050.00 

231 

6.930.00 

12* 

400.00 

3035 

12,220.00 

202* 

4,050.00 

1,822* 

25,818.75 

405 

5,062.50 

50 

1,800.00 

177* 

11,070.00 

1 

350.00 

109 

3,700.00 

98f 

1,637.62 

14 

7,500.00 

305 

4,000.00 

100 

6,000.00 

48 

3,000.00 

777* 

15,500.00 

5 

1,500.00 

20 

1,500.00 

4 

2,000.00 

1.148| 

30,000.00 

1 

450.00 

148.87 

2,500.00 

4 

2.500.00 

456* 

15,968.75 

55 

1,100.00 

127 

2,540.00 

151i 

8,062.50 

121* 

3,637.50 

1,620 

36,000.00 

60 

3,000.00 

106 

2.340.00 

33 

825.00 

1,622* 

16,225.00 

325 

24,375.00 

50 

1,250.00 

174 

8,700.00 

105* 

2,110.00 

202* 

2,531.25 

100 

5,000.00 

lOl* 

1.015.00 

395* 

13,842.50 

455 

3,640.00 

127* 

19,625.00 

6 

650.00 

56 

1,275.00 

103* 

4,140.00 

1011 

1,500.00 

100 

1,200.00 

202* 

6,000.00 

30 

1,000.00 

1011 

2,750.00 

32 

1,600.00 

20 

250.00 

1,900 

40,000.00 

310 

31,000.00 

202* 

8.100.00 

7 

750.00 



1225 

7,365.00 

3 

400.00 

297 

21,000.00 

28,566.94 

767,392.87 

127.5 

9,500.00 

768 

10,742.00 

73 

5,475.00 



101* 

2,025.00 

47* 

803.25 

52 

4,000.00 




Date. 

Name. 

Number 

Lot No. 

District. 

Price. 

Price 

acies. 




per acre. 

Nov. 27,1918 
Do . 

B. Rothschild. 

405 

104, 153. 

9 

$4,000.00 
2,531.25 
7,593.75 

$9.90 

Wm. Becker. 

202* 

607* 

149'.. 

9 

12.50 

Do . 

B. W. Bussey.«.. 

181, 204, half of 
205, half of 180. 

33 

12.50 





Do . . .. 

.do. 

1,822* 

207,210,211,238, 
239 , 240. 

33 

18,225.00 

15.00 




Do. 

J. S. Psalmonds. 

1,620 

106,117,141,108, 
107, 139, 140, 
halfofll6,118. 

6 

36,000.00 

22.22 







2 Do 

Mrs. Sarah Ritch. 

1,622* 

Part 64. 65, 223, 
249, 208, 209, 
232, 240, 250. 

6 

16,225.00 

10.00 



20.00 




Do 

E. C. Rogers. 

105* 

50 

53. 

9 

2,110.00 
3,250.00 
5,475.00 
700.00 

Do 

E. S. Bray. 

Half of 12. 

9 

65.00 

Do 

T. W. Jones. 

73 

Part 110. 

C. R. 

75.00 

Do 

J. Flint. 



7 

17.50 

Do 

George Evans. 

101* 

47* 


7 

1,600.00 

15.76 

Do 

Betty Lewis. 


7 

803.25 

17.00 

Do 

Harrison Kitchen. 

3 


7 

400.00 

133.33 

Do 

Wm. H. Becker . 

405 

115, 136. 

9 

5,062.50 
15,000.00 

12.50 

Do. 

J. R. Christian and Mrs. 

447* 

49, 36, 214, 202,' 

7,6 

21.20 

Christian. 

160* 

203, 67, part 
47. 


43. 75 



Dec. 11,1918 

T)n 

0. D. Edge. 

176 

Parts 12, 13. 

C. R. 

7,700.00 
1,650.00 

Mrs. E. C. McCord. 

110 

1, 49..... 

7,9 

15.00 

Do 

A. J. Matthews estate. 

101* 

55 

15. 

9 

2,025.00 
1,100.00 

20.00 

Do 

Henry Pierce. 

14. 

9 

20.00 

Do 

C J. Edge. 

42 

139. 

C. R. 

3,750.00 
6,000.00 
2,616.00 
2,292.50 

89.28 

Do 

J. M. Talbot. 

100 

129, 130. 

C. R. 

60.00 

Do 

T. E Berry. 

218 

114 ,111 . 

9 

12.00 

Do 

Dr. W A. Scott. 

229:* 

768 

170, 151, 171 . 

9 

10.00 

Do 

C. C Layfield . 

51/ 52/ 53, 62, 
part 63. 

7 

10,742.00 

14.00 




12.00 

Do 

Tom .Tones. 

100 

Half of 110 . 

9 

1,200.00 

Do 

Wilkes Stanton . 

56 

153 . 

7 

1,275.00 

22.80 

Do . 

Jos. M. Tomblin . 

109 

16,17,48, part 3. . 
167,168,185,186, 

9,7 

3,300.00 

30.28 

Dec. 12,1918 

Mrs. L. R. Black, now Mrs. 

1,413 

9 

17,677. 75 

12.50 

J. F. Adams. 


199, 200, 217. 




Do . 

A P Phelts . 

94 

140, 14, 19 . 

C. R.,9 

/ 1,250.00 
\ 1,250.00 

25.00 

28.40 



Dec. 19,1918 

Dr> 

\Trs T)ivie Fuller 

100 

123, 124 . 

C. R. 

7,000.00 

70.00 

E C Fuller 

70 

106'. . 

C. R. 

4,900.00 

70.00 

Do 

John Blackmar . 

231 

142,143, 144, 143, 

9 

6,930.00 

30.00 




140, 147. 




Do . 

A. 0. Blackmar . 

20 

147 . 

9 

250.00 

12.50 























































































































190 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Land on which prices have been agreed and signed options given— Continued. 


Pate. 

Name. 

Number 

acres. 

Lot No. 

District. 

Price. 

Price 
per acre. 

Pec. 19,1918 

A. 0. Blackmar. 

200 

6, 123, 125, 126... 

7 

,16,000. 00 

130.00 

Po 

. .do. 

7 

149. 

9 

750.00 

107.00 

Po.. 

_do. 

297 

147, 15, 16, 17.... 

C. R., 9 

21,000.00 

70.70 

Po 

H H Williams. 

30 

168. 

• 7 

1,000.00 

33.33 

Po 

Julia T,ove 

1 

168. 

7 

450.00 

450.00 

Po 

James Chaney. 

1 

168. 

7 

350.00 

350.00 

Po 

John Clark . 

50 

154. 

7 

1,800.00 

30. 60 

Po 

Pelia Jones. 

5 

106. 

C. R. 

1,500.00 

300. Oil 

Po 

Hattie Jones. 

0 

16. 

C. R. 

850.00 

141.67 

Po 

S P Wynn estate. 

50 

108. 

9 

500.00 

10.00 

Po ... 

J Robert Duncan. 

127* 

121, 122, 127, 128. 

C. R. 

9, 500.00 

74.50 

Po 

W E Colwell. 

106 

16, 17. 

9 

2,385.00 

22.50 

Po 

Jennie Bryant. 

m 

87. 

9 

400.00 

32.00 








46 pa.rnels 

12,558J 



248,369.00 









Senator Smith of Georgia. Now, Mr. Chairman, I will ask Col. 
Wyllie and Col. Whelen, who were designated by Gen. Marsh to 
present the view of the General Staff and War College, to put in 
writing a statement as to the necessity for this kind of school. 

Senator Kirby. Are they present? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. They are present; yes, sir. 

Senator Kirby. Why not let them do it? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I just thought it would be so much 
briefer. I am simply trying to save the time of the committee. 
They are present and I shall be glad to have you ask them anything 
that you desire in addition to the statement. The statement is as 
follows: 

NECESSITY FOR A SMALL-ARMS SCHOOL. 

The education and training of an Army officer may be divided into three 
parts—basic, tactical, and technical. The basic training is obtained at the 
United States Military Academy, various colleges, and at garrison schools 
during the first few years of an officer’s service. The tactical training is 
obtained in garrison schools and in experience with troops. Formerly the 
technical training was also so obtained, but in recent years this has not been 
possible. The tendency of modern war is to become more and more technical, 
making necessary a much higher order of technical training for officers to 
fit them to instruct their troops. Every arm and branch of the Army now 
recognizes the necessity for a technical training school. Thus we have an 
Engineer School, a Signal School, a Medical School, a School of Fire for 
Field Artillery, various flying fields, and a Small-Arms School. 

The Small-Arms School is necessary for the technical training of officers of 
Infantry (including machine-gun officers) and Cavalry, and for certain officers 
of Artillery and Engineers. The Small-Arms School is the only technical 
training school for two-thirds of the Army—the Infantry and Cavalry. The 
necessity for uniform and thorough training of this nature was demonstrated 
by the lessons of the War with Spain, and the Britisli-Boer War, and still 
further by the Russo-Japanese War. As a result there was organized in the 
United States Army in 1906 a School of Musketry at Monterey, Cal. This 
school later developed into the School of Fire, comprising the School of Fire 
for Field Artillery, the Infantry School of Arms, and the Machine-Gun School. 
This school was functioning at Fort Sill at the beginning of the war of 1917. 
These schools were very limited in their scope. They were small and taught 
only a few selected officers. Thus, while they served to keep the science and 
technique alive and to a certain extent progressive, yet they had a rather 
small influence on the efficiency of the troops. 

At the start of the war of 1917 we were obliged to rely for subaltern officers' 
almost entirely upon the product of officers’ training camps, the officers grad¬ 
uating therefrom after only three months’ instruction, and this basic instruc¬ 
tion with practically no technical instruction. It very shortly became apparent 




























































LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


191 


that the graduates of these three-month schools were not able to train their 
men* to a state of efficiency. The proportion of senior Regular Army officers 
with organizations (3 per 100 officers) was not enough to carry on officer train¬ 
ing while engaged also in organization training. As a consequence the first 
National Guard and National Army divisions sent to France) required from 
three to five months’ training, mostly technical, after arriving there, before they 
could be placed in the line. The lack of technical training of these troops, par¬ 
ticularly in marksmanship and musketry, was the subject of many cablegrams 
from Gen. Pershing. As a result, there was organized a Small Arms Firing 
School at Camp Perry, Ohio, a Machine Gun Training Center at Camp Hancock, 
and the scope of the Infantry School of Arms at Fort Sill was enlarged. 
During the early part of 1918 about one-fifth of the graduates of officers’ train¬ 
ing schools were sent to one or another of these schools for one month’s training 
in addition to their three months at the various officers’ training schools. 

Even these schools proved inadequate for the efficient training of subaltern 
officers, and when, in July, 1918, it was determined to raise a large number of 
additional divisions it was felt that it was absolutely necessary to give the 
officers of these new divisions at least six months’ training before joining their 
organizations, three months of this to be basic and three months technical. 
Accordingly steps were taken to combine the Infantry School of Arms, the 
Small Arms Firing School, and the Machine Gun Training Center into one 
central school to be located at Columbus, Ga. The product of this school was 
to be 4,000 officers per month. This school would have started to function 
about December 15, 1918, had not the armistice been signed. 

The lessons of the war of 1917 show the greatly increased importance of 
technical training of troops. As has been stated, the tendency of modern war is 
to become more and more technical. In order that this technical training shall 
be efficient and uniform enough to function correctly in any organization of the 
Army, it must be conducted for instructors (officers) at one central school. 
Moreover, as it necessitates a large amount of firing of a character simulating 
battle firing, it requires a special locality selected for its safety factor. Thus 
in training officers to use with effect the fire power of their troops it is neces¬ 
sary to give them facilities for using this power in at least five fire problems in 
which the officer shall command a fire unit (platoon). If we have 500 officers 
to train, this means 2,500 problems. To complete these problems in a reason¬ 
able time, it is necessary to hold a large number at once; hence a very large 
tract of land is necessary. 

It has been demonstrated beyond doubt that it requires at least four weeks to 
train an officer to efficiency as an instructor in marksmanship, four weeks as an 
instructor in musketry, and four more weeks for trench mortar, 37-millimeter 
gun, and grenades, making three months at least necessary for the technical 
training of the Infantry officer. The machine-gun officer requires at least this 
much time for his technical training. 

While we were stiil at war, our needs for the technical training of officers of 
units armed with the rifle were provided for by the establishment of the In¬ 
fantry School of Arms at Columbus, Ga., based on a student body of 12,750 offi¬ 
cers. This large reservoir of officers from which there was to be a steady flow 
of 4,000 per month, was provided for by the establishment of a special officers’ 
training camp at Camp Fremont, Cal. Immediately upon acceptance of the 
armistice this training camp was abolished along with all the others, and the 
student body of the Infantry School of Arms was reduced to a peace-time basis 
of 2,000 officers, noncommissioned officers, and selected privates. At the snme 
time, steps were taken to further consolidate the training of officers and pros¬ 
pective officers by combining with the two schools already at Columbus the Tank 
School from Camp Polk and the Machine Gun School from Camp Hancock. 
This consolidation made it necessary to retain the total land area as planned, 
or nearly all of it. The cost of construction was not materially reduced because 
the character of the buildings was changed from temporary war-time construc¬ 
tion to a type more suited to peace-time conditions and more durable in char¬ 
acter. 

It is axiomatic that every officer and noncommissioned officer in whom is 
vested the proper training of the other members of his command must, himself, 
be properlv trained, and especially is this true of the weapons with which he 
fights The student body at the school at Columbus has been fixed at 2,000 as 
being a number adapted to peace-time needs, regardless of the size of our 
Army, and capable of rapid expansion to meet any emergency. Our late ex¬ 
perience taught us to turn to the well trained noncommissioned officer as our 


192 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


first reliance for officer material. The smaller onr peace-time Army the 
greater the importance of training such material. The proportion of officers and 
noncommissioned officers in this student body of 2,000 would be determined by 
the particular needs of the Army at the time, and these needs would be largely 
indicated by the size of the Army. For the present, and for two or three years, 
these students would be largely lieutenants, after which the larger portion would 
be noncommissioned officers and selected privates. Provision has also been 
made, at certain periods of the year, for instructing in marksmanship the offi¬ 
cers of the National Guard of the several States, groups of civilians who are 
identified with the rifle clubs of the country and specially selected men from 
the colleges and universities which have military training as a part of their 
curriculum. 

The necessity for these schools in the technical training of the various arms 
of the service has been recognized for many years, by the establishment of the 
School of Fire for Field Artillery at Fort Sill, the Coast Artillery School at 
Fortress Monroe, and the Engineer School at Washington Barracks. This 
school at Columbus is the one and only school of arms for the Infantry and Cav¬ 
alry arms of the service, which in any army must form the larger part of the 
whole. The War Department considers a small arms school of the size and 
scope set forth above was absolutely necessary for the efficiency of the Army. 

Robt. E. Wyllie, 
Colonel, General Staff. 

Townsend Whelen, 
Lieutenant Colonel, General Staff. 

Senator Kirby. The only thing I would like to ask these gentle¬ 
men is, Where are you going to get your selection of the men; who 
selects the men for entering the school ? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I will ask Col. Whelen to take the 
stand. 

STATEMENT OF LIEUT. COL. TOWNSEND WHELEN, GENERAL 
STAFF, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

Senator Kirby. Colonel, how is it contemplated in your scheme 
that these students who are to enter this camp, if it is established, 
will be selected ? Is it done by the Army or some other agency ? 

Col. Whelen. It will be done by the Army. We think it highly 
desirable that there shall be in every company of Infantry and in 
every troop of Cavalry at least one officer always present who shall 
be a graduate of this school. 

Senator Kirby. How many officers did we train in this last war? 

Col. Whelen. Technically, do you mean? 

Senator Kirby. Commissioned officers belonging to the fighting 
line? 

Senator New. The line officers. 

Senator Kirby. Yes; line officers. 

Col. Whelen. They gave all of the line officers who had not been 
in the Regular Army previous to the war a three months’ basic 
training at the officers’ camp of instruction. 

Senator Kirby. I understapd that, but how many altogether were 
trained and commissioned as officers of the fighting force ? 

Col. Whelen. I have no idea. 

Senator Kirby. You do not know about that? 

Col. Whelen. No; but I can get those figures for you. 

Senator Kirby. It is immaterial. There were enough, however, 
for officering an Army of 5,000,000 men, were there not? 

Col. Whelen. No, sir; enough for officering an Army of about 
3,000,000 men. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


193 


Senator Kirby. You had officers for the others, had you not, who 
either had trained or were in course of training ? 

Col. Whelen. There was a real shortage of officers in November 
of last year. 

Senator Kirby. Of last year ? 

Col. W Helen. We had in training by December enough officers to 
make up that shortage. 

Senator Kirby. Now, if the war is ended, the General Staff would 
not contemplate keeping more than a standing Army of 500,000, 
would it ? 

Col. Whelen. The General Staff contemplates only keeping those 
officers that are necessary. 

Senator Kirby. I am not talking about officers; I am talking 
about Army. 

Senator New. An Army of 500,000 men. 

Col. Whelen. I have not heard anybody make an estimate of an 
Army of over 500,000. 

Senator Kirby. If those you have already trained are sufficient to 
take care of 3,000,000 men, it would seem that we might get along 
with the old system, might we not, and leave off some of these camps! 

Col. Whelen. A great many of these young officers- 

Senator Kirby. Excuse me. Let it be understood that I think the 
people of Georgia ought to be paid for their land and paid for dam¬ 
ages, and for the trouble they have been put to by the Government; 
there is no question about that. The only thing I am interested in 
is whether the Government ought to be required, at this time of 
enormous expenditure, to establish an ideal school that would be 
necessary probably under other conditions when the expenses have 
already been so great and when the war is ended and the Army is 
reduced from 5,000,000 men to at most 500,000 men. That is the 
only point I am trying to get at. 

Col. Whelen. Answering your question, while we have now plenty 
of officers that we can bring into the Regular Army and fill the Reg¬ 
ular Army up to whatever size Congress decides on, yet it is a fact 
that the great majority of these officers have not been trained to a 
point where we think it is desirable that officers of the Regular Army 
shall be trained. Their training has not been completed, and it will 
be necessary to complete that training. In addition to that, we will 
have to train those officers who come in from time to time to keep 
us up to the highest standard. 

Senator New. When you talk about training officers enough to 
handle an army of 3,000,000 men or more, you are speaking now of 
officers who were trained for temporary use ? 

Col. Whelen. Exactly. 

Senator New. For emergency use, and not officers who would con¬ 
stitute the Regular Army of the United States in time to come? 

Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. Now, this school, as I understand it, is for perma¬ 
nent use to train the officers and give a post graduate course to offi¬ 
cers who are intended to be permanently in the Army of the United 
States ? 

Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. 

99137—19-13 


194 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Kirby. Colonel, do you think it is necessary to train a 
man to a finer edge for a permanent officer in peace time than a man 
who has actually gone into the fighting and done the fighting in 
war? Now, what is the necessity for that? What I am trying to 
get at—and I do not want to seem contentious about it—is this: We 
have spent all this money and the war is over. Now, here is a great 
big problem to build a $10,000,000 school with West Point proceed¬ 
ing regularly, and with Annapolis going ahead, and with officers 
already enough trained to fight with an army of 5,000,000. Now, 
why can not we dispense with this school right now ? In other words, 
what is the necessity for training officers for the Eegular Army in 
peace time so much better than those who have been fighting and 
have been trained? What is the necessity that would require that 
expenditure of money? 

Col. Whelen. Those officers have not been trained well in war 
time. They have been trained under what we call in the Army the 
“ get-rich-quick ” method. They have not been trained to fight. The 
Army is not satisfied with their training. Their lack of training 
has cost many, many lives in this war. It is not right that we should 
send our sons into war led by §uch men at all—not that the men 
are not all right themselves, but they lack training. If it had not 
been for this emergency we should never have thought of doing it. 
If we had given the matter clear thought and had seen this thing 
coming on we would have trained our officers up to the very highest 
degree of efficiency. 

Senator Kirby. Your insistence, then, is, as a professional soldier 
and as an officer, that every man who commands men should be 
trained to the very highest possible degree of efficiency ? 

Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kirby. When the circumstances permit? 

Col. Whelen. Absolutely. I do not think this committee ought 
to stand for anything else but that our Eegular Army has got to be 
trained up to the very highest point possible. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. In other words, you feel that we have 
suffered from neglect as to this kind of training in the past, during 
this present war? 

Col. Whelen. We have; decidedly. We could not perceive these 
things. We could not possibly perceive a war of this size, or that 
the war would be carried on as technically as it has been. 

Senator Kirby. It is a new system of modern warfare ? 

Col. Whelen. Yes, sir; it is a new system of modern warfare. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. And you want your commissioned offi¬ 
cers and noncommissioned officers in the Army, of whatever size, to 
be trained to the highest degree of efficiency ? 

Col. Whelen. They must be modern officers; yes, sir. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. And you are obliged to have a camp of 
this kind to do it in ? 

Col. Whelen. Yes, sir; from the standpoint of this particular 
camp. The strength of our Army has always laid in the fact that 
we could make more hits for the ammunition expended than any 
other army. . That is the reason it has been successful. It requires 
technical training to do that—more technical than ever before/ We 
used to give this technical training, but it is necessary that this 
technical training be of a much higher character now and to have it 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


195 


uniform in order than all our men can be trained by the same system. 
It is much cheaper to have this technical training given at one school 
than to make a plant and provide instructors and material for it at 
all of our Army posts. It will be decided, undoubtedly—because it 
is the actual fact—that this school is necessary; that we will have to 
have this school at one place or another. The training and instruc¬ 
tion branch of the General Staff, which I represent, does not wish to 
enter into a discussion at all as to the necessity for putting this school 
at Columbus. 

Senator Kirby. I understand that. 

Col. Whelen. They are simply entering into a discussion upon 
the necessity of the school itself. As a matter of fact, the whole sys¬ 
tem of training schools for all branches of the Army has been worked 
out and everything that we have asked for is necessary. If we were 
to put this school at any other location, then we would be throwing 
out something else which is just as necessary. For instance, it has 
been suggested to put this camp at a number of places which are 
already taken by the Artillery. The Artillery needs those places be¬ 
cause the technique of their arm of the service has also increased, 
and they have to have certain places where the Artillery can fire ad 
libitum and where that fire can be determined by aerial observation, 
and those places are few and far between. 

Senator Sutherland. Have England, France, and Germany, as 
far as you know, camp schools as large as this, comprising 115,000 
acres, devoted to such purpose? 

Col. Whelen. They must have tracts that they can use for this 
purpose. I do not think they would have entered into this war with¬ 
out such places. 

Senator Sutherland. Have they, as an actual fact, and did they 
before this war, maintain a large standing army with any such school 
as this? 

Col. Whelen. I do not believe England has had in England itself. 
I do not believe it is possible to get such a tract of ground in Eng¬ 
land to-day. 

Senator Sutherland. And how about France, that maintained a 
much larger army than England? 

Col. Whelen. France, so skilled in artillery during this war, as 
it has shown itself to have been, must have had such a place. 

Senator Sutherland. This is for small arms. Did they have as 
large a tract as this, or anything approximating it, devoted to such 
purpose ? 

Col. Whelen. I do not think she could have had, because France’s 
small-arm training is woefully weak. 

Senator Sutherland. Do you know what Germany did in that 
particular ? 

Col. Whelen. Germany has undoubtedly done so- 

Senator Sutherland. But do you know that she has a school ap¬ 
proximating this school and requiring as large an area as this de¬ 
voted to this purpose? 

Col. Whelen. No, sir; I do not know that, but the state of her 
training shows that she undoubtedly must have had. 

Senator Sutherland. But why make a deduction when the facts 
are obtainable? We do not want to guess at it, as to whether she 
has or not. 



196 


LAND LOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Whelen. It is merely a deduction based upon the results that 
they have obtained with their army. 

Senator Sutherland. They may have gotten the results in another 
way. Sometimes results are obtained in different ways. 

(Col. Whelen was thereupon excused.) 

The Chairman. Is that all that you have to present, Senator 
Smith ? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. No, Mr. Chairman. I desire to submit 
some more written matter. I desire to present to you from Col. 
Eames a statement with reference to the selection of this place. It 
is as follows: 

The Chairman. I think Col. Eames covered that in his oral tes¬ 
timony. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Part of it he did and part of it he 
did not. He continues as follows: 

REQUIREMENTS OF A SITE FOR THE INFANTRY SCHOOL OF ARMS. 

Climate .—The climate must be such as to permit open-air training the year 
around. This is necessary on account of the length of the course and the suc¬ 
cession of courses necessary for an economical use of the plant. To lose a 
course during the winter months means the idleness of an expensive plant for at 
least one-fourth of the time. 

There should be an absence of blizzards, hot winds, dust storms, glare, high 
winds, excessive heat, and excessive cold. 

The rainfall should not be excessive, the admissible amount depending largely 
upon the soil. Rains do not stop work unless the ground becomes miry or 
water-soaked. 

The nights must be reasonably cool in summer because of the classroom work 
and study periods that are scheduled after dark. 

Health .—The locality should be free from endemic diseases, mosquitoes, and 
other conditions injuriously affecting the health of the troops or difficult or 
expensive of correction. 

Soil .—The soil should be light and porous, sandy enough to avoid mud and 
mire in rainy weather, but firm enough to stand well in trenches to avoid the 
expense of revetting. 

Cost .—The cost of the land should not exceed an average of about $20 per 
acre, including improvements except at the cantonment site proper where the 
*cost may be higher. 

Urba.n requirements .—The post should be near enough to a city of at least 
25,000 to afford the necessary amusements and relaxation to men and officers 
as well as to afford a mart in which may be bought those necessaries for per¬ 
sonal and community existence. The larger the city the better from a psycho¬ 
logical points of view, but from a material point of view it is necessary only 
that it be large enough for the purposes outlined. 

The post should not be more than about 8 miles from the city in order to 
avoid expense in transportation of persons and materials and to avoid loss of 
time in transit. 

Transportation. —There should be railroads upon the boundaries and through 
the reservation in order that the expense of truck transportation may be lessened 
by the use of shuttle trains in distributing students through the area. There 
should also be enough good roads suitably disposed to facilitate distribution 
of students by truck and these roads should be firm enough to resist ordinary 
trucking and inexpensive of repair and reconstruction. 

Topography. —The topography of the post site proper should be such as to 
avoid expensive grading of building sites and roads, but diversified enough to 
avoid a monotonous aspect. It should be well drained and be adjacent to a 
suitable site for a target range. (About 5 square miles.) 

The requirements of the target range are that it should be level and about 
2 miles long at the firing line by | of a mile in depth in the direction of 
fire. The direction of fire should not be within 60° of east nor 90° of west, 
this direction of fire being a very particular point. It should be toward the 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


197 


north if that direction does not result in making unfavorable the constant 
winds. Winds should blow from one side rather than in the plane of tire. The 
soil here is important if the climate is rainy, as the firing lines should be usable 
immediately after the heaviest rains. Ground water should not exist at less 
than 5 feet in order that the necessary pits may be dug without excessive ex¬ 
pense for draining. 

The field firing range should be similar to any good maneuver ground. 
Diversified with hills, valleys, meadows, villages, streams, roads, etc. 

Water .—There should be available on or very near to the building site a 
supply of not less than 1,000,000 gallons of clear, potable water that may be 
piped to the site without any unusual cost for piping, treatment or pumping. 
Throughout the firing area there should be a number of streams of potable 
water for use during the day. 

Farm lands .—Near the post there should be available an area suitable for 
truck farms on which the fresh vegetables used by the troops may be grown 
and pasturage sufficient for the milk herds attached to the post should be 
available near water and shade. 

Geographic location .—In order to avoid expense of transportation of students 
and of supplies, the school should not be located in the extreme East or West. 
In order not to lose valuable time in the winter months, it should not be 
located in the far north. Located in the center of the United States as nearly 
as may be in view of the other requirements, it should be on at least two 
railroads with adequate service and schedules, with railroad yards for storing 
equipment pending a movement of troops, and so located as to avoid the use 
of Pullman equipment as far as possible. 

There should be good markets, refrigeration plants, and like necessities from 
the viewpoint of subsistence and the general location should be fixed with due 
regard to the distance from the arsenals and munition factories from which 
come the bulk of the supplies for the school. 

The post proper should not be near, but at the target range, and should be 
central with relation to the area used for field firing order to minimize the 
amount of transportation necessary to distribute the classes of their work. 

Of all the places examined in the “center of the United States,” none ap¬ 
proached Columbus in the number of requirements met by the site. 

Xow, here is a statement from Col. Eames giving the various 
other camps, their acreage, and the cost at each of those camps. He 
refers to the other camps and the other cantonments, with an ex¬ 
planation of their size and what it would cost the Government to 
acquire the necessary land put up buildings at any one of these 
other places: 


Statistics regarding cantonments. 


Cantonment. 

Capacity 

(persons). 

Area of 
camp 
(acres). 

Total area 
(acres). 

Cost to 
buy. 

Camp Custer, Battle Creek, Mich.'.. 

35.458 

5,996 

9,139 

S7,935,000 
3,105,000 

Camp Devens, Aver, Mass . 

36.832 

10,607 

6,848 
5,209 

Camp Dix, Wrightstown N. J. 

42. 806 

4,502 
3,354 

10; 270;000 
20,930,000 
(') 

10,925,000 
28,7.50,000 
6,210,000 
5,175,000 

Camp Dodge, Des Moines, Iowa. 

42,227 

Camp Fnnst.nn, Fnrt Rilpv } Kans . 

42,806 

19,447 

11,303 

Camp Gordon, Atlanta, Ga. 

4L 162 

4, 672 

Camp Grant., Rook ford, Til . 

42,619 

L 600 

5,665 

Camp .Taokson, Columbia, R. C . 

44^ 009 
49. 721 

2.737 

12,804 

Camp Dee, Petersburg, Va. . 

5,542 

9,240 

Camp Tyfiwis, American T.a.kp, Wash . 

46.232 

70,000 

0) 

4,140,00 
4.600,000 
li; 500,000 
11, 500,000 
2,300,000 
12,075,000 

Camp Meadp Admiral Md . 

42.830 


9; 349 
14,946 
11,802 

Camp Pike, kittle Rook, Ark . 

43, 843 

2.796 

Camp Sherman, Chillionthe Ohio . 

39.904 

2 , 002 

2,660 

Camp Taylor, Unnisville, KV . 

45.424 

23, 621 

Camp Travis, San Antonio Tex 

42', 809 
43, 567 

5,730 

18.290 

Camp Upton, Yaphailk L T . 

4,000 

15; 198 




1 Owned. 

































198 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Statistics regarding camps. 



Persons. 

Acres. 

Beauregard, Alexandria, La. 

29,121 

21,600 

Bowie, Fort Worth, Tex. 

41, S79 

2,186 

Cody, Deming, N Mex. 

44,959 
46,183 
30,000 
48,305 
45,099 
32,066 
44,899 
45,074 
57, 748 
41,693 

13,757 
67,713 
7,203 
6,000 
13,811 
12,721 
9,560 

Doniphan, Fort Sill, Okla. 

Fremont, Palo Alto, Cal. 

Greene, Charlotte, N. C . 

Hancock, Augusta, Ga. 

Kearney, Linda Vista, Cal. 

Logan, Houston, Tex. 

McArthur, Waco, Tex. 

10,669 

McClellan, Anniston, Ala. 

i$;000 
13,659 

Sevier, Greenville, S! C. 

Shelby, Hattiesburg, Miss. 

36,010 

12; 960 
10,600 

Sheridan. Montgomery, Ala . 

41,593 

Wadsworth, Spartanburg, S. C. 

56; 249 
43,011 

16,553 
21,480 

Wheeler, Macon, Ga. 



Note.— Of the 16 cantonments but 2 are owned by the Government, the remaining 14 being rented. 
The estimated cost of buying these 14 sites (100,000 acres) is based on the cost for the relatively small sites 
now rented. The buildings on these sites must be painted to make them last at all and must be altered 
in many cases to make them fit the needs of the school. It is roughly estimated that $1,000,000 will be 
needed for these purposes. Another $1,000,000 will be needed to build the target range and about $2,000,000 
will be needed for building the officers’ quarters and other buildings that can not be obtained by alteration. 
If no quarters are built there will be an annual charge of about $400,000 for commutation of quarters and the 
work of the school will be seriously affected. Four million dollars must therefore be spent on any can¬ 
tonment used in addition to the cost of the land. 


Senator Sutherland. Which two are owned, Senator? 

Senator Kirby. Camp Pike is one that the Little Rock people gave 
them, containing 3,000 acres of land, and built houses on it which cost 
over $350,000 of good money for their erection, and 10,000 acres of 
new ground was given them free during the war. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Camp Lewis is another. I do not 
know which the other is; I suppose it is Camp Pike. 

Senator Kirby. There is another camp. 

Senator Smith, of Georgia. Yes; Camp Funston; that is three. 

Senator Sutherland. Have you any record showing the cost of 
this improvement there right down to bedrock at Columbus, count¬ 
ing the salvage and everything? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. They have already spent a million and 
a half dollars on the plant. 

Senator Kirby. The Assistant Secretary of War, Mr. Crowell, 
gave all those figures, I understand. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. To be exact, it was $1,570,000. I had 
gotten the impression that it was $1,500,000. Now, in my opinion, 
you can reduce the cost of the land a million dollars by taking off 
this land just by Columbus, and I believe the citizens of Columbus 
would appoint a committee to get you relieved from any liability to 
those people for their land by reason of your procedure to take it, 
and that they will undertake to get that off your hands without any 
cost whatever. 

Senator Kirby. That will leave about $9,000,000. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. It will be about $2,000,000 for the land. 
I have no question myself that with $4,000,000—by using the material 
that there is in the camps in the area around Columbus, and the mate¬ 
rial you have bought that you are not going to use at Camp Gordon, 
at Camp Hancock, and at the camp at Montgomery—you can take 
that material that is lying there unused and with $4,0004)00 complete 
this enterprise. 



























LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


199 


Senator Sutherland. They must have made a survey of these facts, 
and they possibly have the actual figures and estimates made by their 
engineers. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. These estimates were made last Sep¬ 
tember and October, when labor was at the top notch; when there 
was the heaviest strain, and the highest pay going out for labor; 
when labor was over 100 per cent above the normal price. That situa¬ 
tion has largely changed and is changing rapidly, and the labor dis¬ 
charged from the Army in that section can be found that would be 
glad to do this work at 50 per cent less than it would have cost last 
September. I am giving you, of course, the figures from my own 
study of conditions. Of course, I am only throwing out a suggestion; 
I do not mean this as conclusive. 

Senator Sutherland. I would like to ask you whether some of the 
officers here have not tabulated a statement of estimates as to the cost 
of this project based upon their survey of the conditions down there, 
as well as the material available? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. There has been no accurate survey as 
to the probable cost of labor since the war has been over, under a 
changed condition. The survey of the cost of labor was made last 
summer. What the labor will cost now has not been figured out by 
the department. 

Senator New. I feel very much as does Senator Sutherland. I 
want to get this matter with respect to cost entirely straight in my 
mind. In the earlier hearings here I think it was Col. Eames, and if 
not some of the other witnesses, who spoke of $14,000,000. Somehow 
or other I got that in my mind. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Those were the original figures esti¬ 
mated last summer. That included all the land and included the 
construction and the purchase of new material. 

Senator New. Yes. Now, yesterday or day before yesterday, in 
testifying here Col. Mumma said, “ Give us $6,000,000 and we will 
complete this whole business.” Now, what I want to do is to get in 
my mind the basis for this change from the $14,000,000 to the 
$6,000,000 total as the expense of the enterprise? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I would like to make a suggestion from 
my own observations as to how it can be done. 

Senator Sutherland. Your observation may be just as accurate 
as theirs, but the committee should not be bound by observations. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I am only giving you a suggestion 
that you can think about when you hear from somebody who knows 
more about it than I do. I would not vote to spend $14,000,000 at 
Columbus. If it were proposed to spend $14,000,000, as a member of 
this committee I would not vote for it. because I am opposed to 
spending that amount of money down there. I do not think it is 
necessary. It would be a waste of Government money. In the first 
place, as I say, they can reduce that amount of money by taking up 
the land just outside of Columbus which is very high-priced land, 
and getting rid of one-third of the land. They were not pledged to 
it, and ought not to have taken it at firsthand i can get citizens there 
to release the Government from that part of the transaction. 

Senator New. I think it would be a perfectly safe thing for you to 
say to the citizens of Columbus that any such high-priced deal as 
this would be impossible. 


200 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Smith of Georgia. I am perfectly willing to say that there 
are responsible men in Columbus who will go to those people and see 
that the Government is relieved from its obligation. As a matter of 
fact, the owners of the high-priced land would like to keep it, anyhow. 

The Chairman. According to your theory the title has passed. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. It has, but they can return it. It 
takes their consent to not claim pay for the land. That is my view 
of it, and my statement is that these citizens of Columbus say they 
will go to the original owners of that land right by Columbus, and 
get them to agree to relieve the Government from taking that land. 

Senator New. I have no doubt that these gentlemen here will go 
just as far in their guaranties in getting the people down there in 
Chattahoochee County, who are insisting on this, to agree to with¬ 
draw from the sale. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. They can not do that because the bulk 
of the land is owned at Columbus, and I presented letters and tele¬ 
grams from men who own the bulk of that land to-day in Chatta¬ 
hoochee County. 

Senator Sutherland. Mr. Chairman, I think we ought to have 
more accurate testimony based on the survey made by the Engineer 
officers- 

Senator Smith of Georgia. So do I. 

Senator Sutherland (continuing). As to what this project is 
going to cost, based on new conditions and material on the ground, 
and taking in all the factors so that we can have accurate informa¬ 
tion. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Let me say just one word as a sug¬ 
gestion, and not as evidence—because I am only giving it as a sug¬ 
gestion—that will reduce the land one-third. Now, then, you have 
got at Camp Gordon and Camp Hancock, and at Montgomery, and 
at camps around this place, material that you bought that you have 
no use for-- 

The Chairman. Do you know how much? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. There is fully enough- 

The Chairman. But how do you know it? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I am told by these citizens. I am told 
by the quartermaster down there and by Col. Eames, and what I am 
going to do is to ask you to investigate it and see if it is not so. 

The Chairman. The officers who told you ought to know. Which 
one of them was it? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Col. Wyllie knows it. 

The Chairman. Colonel, you have the figures as to the cost of 
this whole plant, have you? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then we will call you when Senator Smith gets 
through. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes. Whether they have made esti¬ 
mates as to the present cost of labor I do not know. I am told by 
Col. Wyllie and others that they have this material already bought 
at these camps so that it can be used. I know from my own knowl¬ 
edge of the labor cost in Georgia and the situation generally, that 
you can get your labor at certainly 33^ per cent less than "it was 
estimated last summer. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


201 


V>w, with those changes I would believe, in the interest of the 
(government, and forgetting Columbus, that this project is a neces¬ 
sity here or somewhere else and that we ought to go on with it; 
but we ought to limit the cost to between $6,000,000 and $7,000,000, 
somewhere along there; I do not think it would cost over $7,000,000 
at the outside. I would not vote for $14,000,000 to be expended 
there. 

Senator Sutherland. This is the reason I think it is very im¬ 
portant to know the exact facts. I think it is important that we 
should have some testimony with respect to the military necessity. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I want to interest you in the possibili¬ 
ties that I see sufficiently to make you at least desire to have a study 
of these facts and see if we can not do it. 

Senator Sutherland. It resolves itself, as I see it, into a question 
of the military necessity and whether we can afford to put it in if it 
is necessary. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Here is an additional statement that 
has been furnished by Col. Eames. He was asked by Senator Weeks 
what it would cost yearly to rim this school. He says: 

Inquiry has been made as to the cost of the ammunition that will be expended 
at the Infantry School of Arms in each year. 

I find that there is on hand accumulated for use in the present war a supply 
of ammunition that will last almost exactly 20 years if consumed by an army 
of 250.000, including this school, at the present authorized allowances. The 
cost of this ammunition in any year will vary so much with the annual allow¬ 
ances that I am unable to give any figure that will be at all reliable or valuable 
in connection with this inquiry. 

The Chairman. That is the roughest kind of a guess. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. But those are things that can be stud¬ 
ied out in detail. They are things that we can consider as probable 
and as reasons for a detailed study. 

The Chairman. It would not be worth anything in 50 years. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Well, as long as it was of any account 
they would supply it. 

The Chairman. Yes; but that is not a statement of fact. 

STATEMENT OF COL. R. E. WYLLIE, GENERAL STAFF, EQUIP¬ 
MENT BRANCH, DIVISION OF OPERATIONS. 

The Chairman. Colonel, you heard Senator Smith’s statement? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And the questions put by some members of the 
committee as to the probable cost, and the estimates of cost, of this 
Fort Benning proposition; that is, including the cost of land and all? 

Col. Wyllie. I think I can explain that. The original estimates 
for the construction work alone were $14,000,000. 

Senator New. Construction work alone? 

Col. Wyllie. Construction work alone. 

The Chairman. That estimate was made by your department, 
was it? 

Col. Wyllie. It was under our direction, by the construction di¬ 
vision. That was made in war times, and we expect in constructing it 
in peace times to have some reduction. 

Senator Sutherland. Have you the details of that estimate show¬ 
ing what makes it that, Colonel ? 


202 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Wyllie. No, sir; I have not. The Construction Division 
makes up these estimates on the basis of their previous knowledge of 
what it has cost per building during the Avar. In a building where 
you use so many men it costs so much per man, and they make up 
their estimates along that line; and from their experience during the 
war. 

Senator Sutherland. I think it would be well to put the details 
of that estimate into the record and then see what better they can do. 

Col. Wyllie. I will try to get that. 

Senator New. I think something in the Avay of detail of that kind 
is absolutely essential. 

Col. Wyllie. Then, we ha\ T e on hand material at other camps that 
can be used in this project, already purchased, of about $6,000,000 
as an estimate. 

The Chairman. Where is that ? 

Col. Wyllie. That is in the camps around Atlanta, Augusta, and 
Montgomery, Anniston, Sevier, and Greenville, S. C. 

The Chairman. Could you not get $6,000,000 for that if you were 
to sell it ? 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What would you get? 

Col. Wyllie. The estimate is about 50 per cent. 

Senator Sutherland. Have you estimated of that, showing what 
the material is and what its cost is, and what its possible worth is 
now ? How could you make any basis for that unless you had such a 
statement ? 

Col. Wyllie. Well, I get that statement from the Construction 
Division; that is, the field detail that purchases the material. 

Senator Sutherland. They have that, and I suggest that a state¬ 
ment of available material around in that vicinity be obtained and 
submitted for the information of the committee and put into the 
record. 

Col. Wyllie. A detailed list? 

Senator Sutherland. Yes. 

Senator New. As to the detail list you mean, Senator Sutherland, a 
pretty general detail ? 

Senator Sutherland. Yes; a general detail as to the quantity. 

Senator New. And character? 

Senator Sutherland. The amount for the lumber, and things ol 
that kind. 

Senator Neav. Let me ask you a question there. You say the 
original cost was $14,000,000, estimated ? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator Neav. Now, you say you have about $6,000,000 worth of 
material close at hand in those other camps ? 

Col. Wyllie. We really have more than that, but we would need 
about $6,000,000 to finish this project. But we have as much as that. 

Senator Neav. All right. Now, you reduce your estimate from 
$14,000,000 to $8,000,000 by reason of that fact; is that so ? 

Col. Wyllie. Of new money; yes, sir. 

Senator New. Of new money ? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


203 


Senator New. Exactly. Then if you are going to require $8,000,000 
new money and $6,000,000 worth ci material, as a matter of fact, you 
have not reduced your cost from $14,000,000 to $8,000,000 at all, 
have you ? 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir. 

Senator New. So that it is not a reduction at all? 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir; there is a little bit more. There is a reduc¬ 
tion, though. We have already done about between a million and a 
million and a half of dollars worth of work on the place. 

Senator New. Yes; I understand, but I want to get straight in my 
mind just what real substance there is in this reduction of cost from 
$14,000,000 to $6,000,000. Now, if you are counting as a reduction 
the $6,000,000, or more, worth of materials that you have on hand, 
that means that you are taking no estimate of the value of that, and 
as a matter of fact it becomes no reduction at all from your 
$14,000,000 estimate. 

Col. Wyllie. There is a reduction, though, because we do not ex¬ 
pect it to cost much if any over $13,000,000, due to its construction 
in peace time instead of in war time. 

The Chairman. $13,000,000 instead of $14,000,000? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is a liberal estimate. 

Senator New. That, I apprehend, would be accounted for by the 
difference in the price of labor? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. You would save a million dollars in labor over what 
it would have cost last September, say, and this spring? 

Col. Wyllie. That is right; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. May I ask what, according to your sul’vev, would 
be the cost of the land altogether? 

Col. Wyllie. The estimate we made was $3,600,000. 

Senater New. For the land? 

Col. Wyllie. For the land. 

The Chairman. Senator Smith stated a while ago that—how 
many thousand acres did you say would be released? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Seventeen thousand acres. 

The Chairman. Seventeen thousand acres would be released. Do 
you know how much the land would cost, eliminating 17,000 acres? 

Col. Wyllie. About $2,500,000. 

The Chairman. Do you know how much has been paid on the land 
: acquired ? 

Col. Wyllie. $30,000. 

The Chairman. Then that is the total? 

Senator New. $30,000 ? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; actually paid. 

The Chairman. Now, that is the total expenditure? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is the total expenditure. 

The Chairman. Not taking into consideration now the land in¬ 
volved in the suit, but taking into consideration only the land for 
which contracts have been made, how much have you yet to pay 
where you have options ? 

Col. Wyllie. I do not think we have any options. We have made 
agreements—that is, we have agreed with the parties for other 
amounts. 


204 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


The Chairman. How much? 

Col. Wyllie. That I am not sure of because I have not received no¬ 
tice, and I do not know just how much they would answer to in 
court. 

The Chairman. Now having paid out $30,000, and assuming that 
you may be obligated for more- 

Col. Wyllie. We are, we know. 

The Chairman. Would it not be very much cheaper for the Gov¬ 
ernment as a business proposition to take those lands that you have 
paid for and take those you have contracted for, unless the parties 
are willing to release you, and release them all, than for the Gov¬ 
ernment to buy the land and take title? 

Col. Wyllie. I do not know whether it would or not, because there 
would be damages on some of the other land. 

The Chairman. But it is bound to be normal, is it not? 

Col. Wyllie. I do not know, sir; the testimony has brought out be¬ 
fore the committee as to the moving of these people away, Senator; 
I really do not know what it is. I have been trying to get some sort 
of an estimate and I can not get one. 

Senator New. How much of this $30,000 has been paid and how 
much of the additional sum for which you are obligated, is on that 
17,000 acres contiguous to Columbus? 

Col. Wyllie. None of the $30,000 is on that. I do not know how 
much of that for which we .have agreements is on that, and how 
much is not. 

The Chairman. Was any reservation made by you people at any 
time in negotiating these deals, that Congress had really not vested 
you with the power to take title ? 

Col. Wyllie. We always assumed that we had the power under 
the statute. 

The Chairman. But you evidently did not assume that you had 
the money? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; we had the money too. 

The Chairman. Then you came down before the Appropriation 
Committee and wanted to get the money for this very project, and 
the committee turned it down? 

Col. Wyllie. I was not aware of that. 

The Chairman. I think the chairman of the Appropriations Com¬ 
mittee so stated, but I understand the explanation was made that 
some members of the committee said you determined that you al¬ 
ready had the money under another appropriation. I think that 
is true. 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Colonel, have you studied the labor 
conditions now to ascertain what the relative cost of the original 
estimate was—$4,000,000 for labor was it not, or $5,000,000? 

Col. Wyllie. The original estimate, as it came to us, did not di¬ 
vide it into labor and material. As I explained a moment ago, they 
make their estimates as a lump sum, putting material and labor to¬ 
gether, based on previous experience as to how much money it takes 
for the two combined to put up a certain type of' building. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. And what part was for labor, you da 
not know? J 


LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


205 


Col. Wyllie. No, sir; simply that we know that the labor is ap¬ 
proximately 50 per cent of the total cost, perhaps a little bit less than 
50 per cent. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. And what reduction you can make 
now from the price then of labor, you do not know ? 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir. We know that it is going down. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. There has been no survey by the War 
Department to determine that proposition, has there? 

Col. Wyllie. I do not think that an accurate survey could be 
made at the present time. 

Senator Sutherland. Mr. Chairman, is the colonel going to put 
in a statement as to the cost now, a complete statement as to what it 
is going to cost, getting down to the bare facts and the lowest possi¬ 
ble cost? 

Col. Wyllie. The estimate we make now is that it will cost about 
$13,000,000. 

The Chairman. When you revise your statement, Colonel, will 
you not kindly put the statement in in detail, as far as you can, of 
what will go to make up your present estimate? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; I will do that. 

Senator Sutherland. They say here if they had $6,000,000 the}' 
could get along with it, and I would like to know just what would 
be done providing you could not get any such sum as $13,000,000, 
which, of course, you can not in all probability. 

Col. Wyllie. I think I can explain that on this line. That means 
$6,000,000 additional to what has already been spent. 

Senator Sutherland. But it, of course, takes into account some 
material, no doubt? 

Col. Wyllie. That means that added to that $6,000,000 will be the 
material already on hand and work which has already been done. 

Senator Sutherland. Then, it would be absolutely necesary to 
a proper understanding of this matter, in order to get the facts be¬ 
fore the committee and before the Senate, to have a definite and 
complete statement of what this is going to cost, and then a state¬ 
ment as to how you expect to save on housing material on hand. 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. So we will know what is going to be the 
net new cash outlay, and then we can make up our minds intelligently 
whether the Government can afford to spend that amount of money, 
and whether it is neccessary or not. 

Col. Wyllie. I have a statement of that that I think will cover 
the matter. Shall I read it? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Col. Wyllie (reading) : 

The original estimates for the construction were $14,000,000. This was made 
in war time and a reduction can be expected, due to construction in peace 
times. The amount already expended and due on the construction already ac¬ 
complished, is nearly $1,000,000; add to this contractors’ fees, which would 
have to be paid on the abandonment of the contract and the cost to the Govern¬ 
ment if the contract is abandoned, will amount to about $1,500,000. 

Senator Weeks. Let me understand you. Do you mean you would 
have to pay the entire contractors’ fee^ 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir; we would have to pay 5£ per cent of every¬ 
thing he has paid out. 


206 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Weeks. For everything that has been done? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes % sir; $30,000 has been expended'for the purchase 
of the land, and, on abandonment, damages must be paid on the land 
now in the possession of the Government. There seems to be no way 
at the present time of getting any kind of an estimate which would 
be of any value on this question of land damages. To finish the 
project, the land must be purchased at an estimated value of 
$3,600,000. 

Senator Sutherland. Does that include the $1,000,000 of property 
rights close to Columbus? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; this means the project as laid out originally. 
Material now purchased and on hand at other camps, amounting to 
about $6,000,000, w T ould be utilized at Camp Benmng. This mate¬ 
rial, if not used, would be sold, and the estimate is that it would 
bring about 50 per cent of the money expended for it. In addition, 
further material will be needed to the extent of about $1,500,000, and 
the labor required will be about $4,500,000. 

Senator Weeks. What does that material consist of ? 

Senator Sutherland. I will say, Senator Weeks, that he is going* 
to submit a statement in detail. 

The Chairman. Does that meet your request for information, 
Senator ? 

Senator Sutherland. Yes, it does. 

The Chairman. Have you anything further to offer, Senator 
Smith ? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. No, sir; I have nothing further to 
offer, except that I would like to have the committee hear Col. Eames, 
who had charge of the plans. 

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF COL. H. E. EAMES, COMMANDANT 
INFANTRY SCHOOL OF ARMS. 

Senator Smith. Colonel, you are right on the spot in Columbus, 
are you not, in charge of this school? 

Col. Fames. Yes, sif. 

Senator Smith. Have you made any estimate of any reduction which 
could be made in this plant to bring the total down to an additional 
expenditure of-something like $6,000,000 outside of this surplus of 
material that is around there ? 

Col. Eames. I have, of course, thought a great deal and figured a 
great deal on the subject of cost. I might say before I came into the 
Army I was an architect, trained as such, and have some knowledge 
of construction costs as a consequence. I believe that while it would 
not be practicable to construct the enterprise at Columbus exactly 
as determined by the Secretary of War and the War Department, 
with the money which the Senator has indicated, I think it is entirely 
practicable to construct for an additional and new expenditure of 
$6,000,000, a total new expenditure of $6,000,000, a school which 
would be satisfactory to me as commandant of the school and as an 
officer having had many years’ experience in commanding a school 
of this nature. When I say $6,000,000 of new money, I take that to 
mean $6,000,000 that must be expended for the total, purchase of land 
and the erection of buildings and the paying of all costs involved in 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


207 


it. But I take it that the Government, owning, I am told, some 
$28,000,000 worth of materials at other camps, for which it has paid, 
and which must now be salvaged, can, without charging to this en¬ 
terprise, turn over to the constructing quartermaster such of that ma¬ 
terial as may be necessary. 

Senator Weeks. That would not be a businesslike thing to do, Colo¬ 
nel. Every enterprise ought to show just what it costs, and it material 
is turned over to this enterprise it should be charged against this 
enterprise, so we would know the real cost. 

Col. Eames. Then I should say if it is charged against it, and as 
a matter of bookkeeping it must be charged against it- 

Senator Weeks. It would be simply a matter of bookkeeping? 

Col. Eames. As a matter of bookkeeping it would be charged 
against it, but the cost of that material, whatever it might be, prob¬ 
ably it would amount to $5,000,000,1 should say—that is an estimate 
of mine. When you fix a price on that it depends on what the Gov¬ 
ernment paid as war prices, or what it is now valued at, if they 
bought it new, or what its salvage value is. This salvage value 
would amount to three and a half million dollars; new value of it 
would amount to perhaps $5,000,000, and this war-time cost would 
perhaps be $7,000,000. 

Senator New. That must be added to the cost, to your $6,000,000. 

Col. Eames. Yes; with such an expenditure we would be able to 
build a very satisfactory school. It would be, of course, foolish to 
say that if the Government owns a piece of ground of 100,000 acres, 
and was given $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 with which to house a school, 
we know a school could be housed for that money. That would be 
absurd. Of course, it can be housed; some school can be housed for 
that amount of money. 

Senator New. The point I was trying to reach in my own mind is 
what the real actual cost of this thing is to be, and, as Senator Weeks 
has said, as a matter of bookkeeping, of course, that material must 
be charged to this particular account, and it is properly chargeable 
there, not merely as a matter of bookkeeping, but as a matter of 
actual cost. You can not ignore the fact that that value goes into 
that particular enterprise and that the cost of it is not to be regarded 
as a total of $6,000,000 at all, but a total of $12,000,000 or $13,000,000. 
It does not purport to prove that the Government has that material. 
I quite agree, however, that, of course, having it it should put it to 
good use. That is all right enough, but at the same time, for my 
own satisfaction and the proper consideration of the real facts, I 
Tvant it understood that it is a $13,000,000 proposition and not a 
$6,000,000 proposition. 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; it should be understood, however, that a 
school can be housed in temporary or expensive quarters—expensive 
because of their temporary nature—for less money than that con¬ 
templated by the construction division. 

Senator Smith. Now, Colonel, the problem with reference to the 
value of this material which you would get from these other camps 
depends in a large part in estimating it as a matter of cost upon 
what that material owned by the Government could be disposed 
of for. 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; of course. 


208 


LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Senator Smith. And that is a question that at present is a matter 
of doubt? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. Your own estimate, I believe, was that it could not 
be disposed of at more than 50 per cent of its cost. 

Col. Eames. I think that is a conservative estimate. 

The Chairman. I think it would be equally as conservative to put 
it below that, because as a rule these properties that are sold bring 
practically nothing. 

Col. Eames. The best examples I have knowledge of averaged 30 
per cent. 

The Chairman. I think that is a large estimate. That is my ex¬ 
perience and observation. 

Col. Eames. But it seems to me—if I may say so I take a great 
and very personal interest in this school, because for so many years 
I have devoted myself to education in the Army, and for the last 
four or five years exclusively to education along this particular line, 
and I feel very strongly the importance and the absolute necessity of 
such a school as this. I have examined so many sites throughout the 
United States that I know that this is a very unique proposition at 
Columbus topographically and from every other point of view, so 
that I feel it would be a great mistake, having gone as far as the 
Government has gone in the matter of procuring this site, not to 
consummate it my continuing the purchase of the ground and the 
building thereon of as much of a school as Congress in its wisdom 
sees fit to give to the War Department. The War Department has 
shown what, in their judgment, should be built, but if Congress is 
unwilling to permit that expenditure, then they should build what- 
even can be built with as much money as Congress will give. I think 
it would be a great mistake to let this opportunity pass because of 
the inability of Congress to give to the War Department the money 
they feel they need to build the project as designed by them. 

Senator Smith. Have you made a study of the other camps and 
other properties which the Government has to s6e what it would cost 
relatively to put this school on any one of them instead of here? 
You have already furnished a statement with reference to that? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. What is your conclusion with reference to the 
relative cost? 

Col. Eames. I believe it would be cheaper to build this school at 
Columbus and go on with this project, with such modification as has 
been suggested here this morning, than it would be to move it to any 
cantonment site. In that connection it should be noted that we have 
some 16 cantonment sites; that is to say, they are wooden houses; 
we have 16 division camps where soldiers are quartered in canvas 
tents that last only a few months and have to be renewed from time 
to time. These are excluded. 

Senator New. So far as the cantonments are concerned, the build¬ 
ings at the cantonments, I suppose, could be used for temporary 
purposes, but you have no grounds in connection with them. 

Col. Eames. No grounds at all. There are only 2 out of the 16 
that the Government owns; one of them is Camp' Funston and the 
other one is Camp Lewis. 


LAND FOE AKTILLEEY TRAINING FIELDS. 


209 


Senator Smith. That is in the State of Washington? 

Col. Eames. That is in the State of Washington; and even there 
you could not use it for that purpose, because it was ceded to the 
Government with the understanding it would be used for maneuver¬ 
ing purposes only. 

Senator Sutherland. That is Camp Lewis ? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Sutherland. How about Camp Funston? 

Col. Eames. Camp Funston already has a school of equitation, 
cooks and bakers’ schools, a medical school, a firing school, artillery 
firing school at that point, and has, I think, if I am not mistaken, 
19,000 acres. 

Senator Sutherland. Haven’t you a school of equitation at Fort 
Riley ? 

Col. Eames. That is at Fort Riley. The Fort Riley Reservation 
has 19,000 acres in it, and on one part of it Camp Funston has been 
erected. 

Senator Smith. Have you studied the area at each one of these 
different places, the land owned by the Government and the cost, of 
additional land, to see whether it is practical and more economical 
to take this school to some other point? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; there are several of these sites that are not 
suitable for the school because of their climatic conditions. There 
are certain geographical and climatic conditions which are governing 
in a matter of this sort which are not met at a great many of these 
places. The amount of land that is rented—none of it is owned. 
When I say none of it is owned, I mean with the exception of these 
two it is rented, and in every case it is a small tract of land. The 
largest tract of land is that at Camp Taylor, where they have 23,000 
acres. The smallest- 

Senator New. Camp Taylor is at Louisville, Ky. ? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; at Louisville, Ky. 

Senator Weeks. Does the Government own the land at Camp 
Taylor? 

Col. Eames. No, sir; it owns some land near there. Camp Dodge 
is the smallest, with 5,000 acres. Yet, at the prices that are fixed by 
the owners on these rented pieces of ground, it would cost, for 
instance, if we went to Camp Dodge, in Iowa, it would cost $21,000,- 
000 to buy the land necessary, and so on at the different other places. 
At Camp Custer, in Michigan—that may be excluded because of 
climatic conditions existing there—but it would cost about $8,000,000 
to buy the land. At Camp Devens, which is far in the East and 
also in the North, it would cost over $3,000,000 to buy the land; at 
Camp Dix, which is at Wrightstown, N. J., and Camp Dodge and 
Camp Gordon it would, in every case, cost four or five times what 
it would cost to buy this land at Columbus. The highest priced land 
probably is at Camp Grant, at Rockford, Ill., which would cost 
$28,750,000 to buy the land. 

Senator New. To buy how much land? 

Col. Eames. The 100,000 acres which we feel is necessary. 

The Chairman. Did you ever look over any public lands in 
Arizona or New Mexico or along the border, where they have eternal 
summer? 

99137—19-14 



210 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Eames. Yes, sir; I have been on some of them, passed through 
them, and served on some of them; but where they have this very 
pleasant climate, and where you can work all the year around, you 
strike other conditions, such as cost of maintenance, the transporta¬ 
tion necessary to bring troops from the far East; you have in many 
of these places sand storms and glare and high winds in some of 
them that make it impracticable to conduct a school with any degree 
of satisfaction. 

Senator McKellar. What is the trouble with Fort Sill? 

Col. Eames. Fort Sill has many troubles. I lived there several 
years. In the first place, it is too small. 

Senator McKellar. What is the matter with the camp in Senator 
Beckham’s State—Camp Knox? 

Col. Eames. That is a camp that is built for artillery. 

Senator McKellar. What is the matter with the camp in North 
Carolina—F ayetteville ? 

Col. Eames. Fayetteville has a very good climate and very good 
soil; it is a little bit East. Still, it is practicable in that way, but 
the area at that point is nearly all wooded. I made a very careful 
examination of Fayetteville, i have gone over it twice. 

Senator McKellar. Was it recommended for this purpose? 

Col. Eames. Yes; but not the camp site that was finally bought for 
the Artillery. When I went out there I was looking for a tract of 
250,000 acres for an Infantry school of arms under war conditions. 
The school at Camp Perry had not yet joined me, nor was it in 
contemplation. I went to Fayetteville and found a very excellent 
site at that point, but it was not chosen by the Artillery, and it in¬ 
cluded a great deal of open ground. It was excluded from the Artil¬ 
lery project, so that the camp at Fayetteville, so called, is not the 
camp at Fayetteville to which I referred in my report, stating 
that it was an excellent one. As it stands now, with the acquired 
land for Camp Bragg, it is not suitable, because it is too heavily 
wooded and because there is no suitable place for an A range within 
a reasonable distance of the existing buildings- 

Senator McKellar. Does it include open land ? 

Col. Eames. There is some open land. There is open land in the 
aviation field, which is a mile or two from the buildings. 

Senator McKellar. Why should all of these—— 

Col. Eames. At every one of these schools it is necessary to main¬ 
tain, for example, a printing plant, a photograph plant, a machine 
shop, a drafting room, an experimental department, and a great 
many institutions—a great many things of that character. There is 
no reason or sense in duplicating them. 

Senator McKellar. Did you have anything to do with the selec¬ 
tion of the camp at Camp Knox—I believe that is the name of it— 
Camp Knox, in Kentucky, and Camp Bragg, in North Carolina? 

Col. Eames. Nothing with Camp Knox. I did go to Camp Bragg. 
I made two trips there. 

Senator McKellar. You understood that Congress had declined 
to grant appropriations for the purchase of these camps, did you 
not? 

Col. Eames. No, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Did you know that recommendations had 
been made by the department and taken before the Committee on 




LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


211 


Appropriations of the House am 1 Senate, and the Appropriations 
Committee of the Senate declined to permit it, and then you went 
ahead, went right straight along and purchased these camps, and 
now you are undertaking to purchase a permanent camp down there 
at Columbus, Ga., without complying with the directions of Congress 
and the expression of the will of Congress? 

Col. Eames. No, sir; I know nothing of that. 

The Chairman. That w r as all gone into, and I think it was claimed 
here and shown by a preponderance of the testimony that the Ap¬ 
propriations Committee turned it down on the theory that they had 
the money already. 

Senator McKellar. I want, at the proper time, to introduce Sen¬ 
ator Martin, the chairman of the Appropriations Committee of the 
Senate, who, I understand, will testify that it was turned down be¬ 
cause the committee declined to appropriate for this purpose, and 
that they thought the project was defeated. The Senator told me 
that a day or two ago. 

Senator Warren. That is correct; the Appropriations Committee 
disallowed the appropriation because they did not approve of the 
building, nor of the buying of the land. 

Senator McKellar. And thereupon the department went ahead 
and bought it anyway, and when it came to Camp Benning, requiring 
the expenditure of $14,000,000 there, they took the precaution not to 
come before Congress, but to use this lump-sum appropriation, with¬ 
out reference to the wishes of Congress about it. 

Senator Smith. That is a subject that you have nothing to do with. 
You simply execute your orders as issued to you from the War 
Department ? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. From whom did you get your orders to go 
ahead and select the camp after Congress had turned it down ? 

Senator Smith. I think it is hardly fair to say “ after Congress 
had turned it down.” I do not think Congress did turn it down. 

Senator McKellar. Well, here is the ranking member, I think, of 
the Appropriations Committee, who has said so. 

Senator Smith. The question is whether the Military Committee, 
which reported the general military bill, furnished an appropriation 
to justify this expenditure. The Appropriations Committee might 
not have appropriated an additional one. 

Col. Eames. I had a perfectly competent order to me. 

Senator McKellar. From whom did you get that order? 

Col. Fames. From The Adjutant General. 

Senator McKellar. Signed by him and approved by the Secretary 
of War? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Will you put that order into the record? 

Col. Eames. I will get a copy of the order; yes, sir. 

Senator Weeks. Col. Eames, I would like to ask a question there. 
Do you know what area the German Empire had in camps designed 
for a similar purpose to that for which this is designed, before the 
war? 

Col. Eames. Not in acreage, Senator; but I know it was approxi¬ 
mately what we are contemplating at Camp Benning, both in acreage 


212 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


and number and character of students to be graduated. Their school 
is hardly to be compared with ours, except in the matter of area, 
because of the character of their construction. They have a small 
country compared to ours, and they can bring the same officers to the 
school three or four times. We expect to bring him once to the school 
for his education and get through with him. 

Senator Weeks. Do you know how much area, or approximately 
how much, the German Empire had in all camps for military pur¬ 
poses? 

Col. Eames. No, sir. 

Senator Weeks. Isn’t that in the War Department—that informa¬ 
tion, in your opinion? 

Col. Eames. It perhaps could be found. I spent a half a day in an 
effort to find that very information, but in that time was unable to 
find it. I found nearly everything else about the German Empire 
but that. 

Senator Weeks. Mr. Chairman, I think that would be useful in¬ 
formation for this committee to have. We may require an incom¬ 
parable Navy, but we certainly will not require greater facilities for 
instructing an Army than the Germans had at the beginning of the 
war. 

Senator McKellar. I do not think we will require as great. We 
are not going to substitute American militarism for German mili¬ 
tarism. 

Senator New. Who were the members of the board in the selection 
of this site? 

Col. Eames. Col. Reese, now at Camp Grant, commanding the 
cadet school at Camp Grant; Lieut. Pope, w T ho is now at West 
Point, an instructor in bayonet combat; and Maj. Lowe, medical 
officer. 

Senator New. They went with you to all of these other sites ? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; they went with me to all of these other sites. 

Senator New. And to Columbus? 

Col Eames. And to Columbus. 

Senator New. And the decision of that board was unanimous, 
was it, in favor of the Columbus site ? 

Col. Eames. Of Columbus, yes. We had two sites, either one of 
which was satisfactory'to the board, one at Fayetteville, N. C., and 
one at Columbus, Ga. 

The Chairman. Did you go to any point on the west coast— 
California ? 

Col. Eames. We did not go to the west coast, because the sites 
there were rejected on account of their distance. At that time, it 
should be understood, we were to get our students from certain 
officers’ training camps that were located from Texas through the 
East, and as a matter of economy in transportation they wanted to 
choose a place which was centrally located, so that the transportation 
cost would be minimized and be placed as near to these camps as 
possible, in order that the Pullman equipment should be minimized. 

Senator McKellar. How many did you examine? How many 
sites ? 

Col. Eames. We physically examined about five. 

Senator McKellar. Where were they ? 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


213 


Col. Eames. Columbus, Ga.; Fayetteville, N. C.; Raleigh, N. C.; 
Knoxville, Tenn.; Muskogee, Okla.; Oklahoma City, Okla.; and 
Wichita, Forest Reservation. Of course, we were at Fort Sill. 

Senator New. Colonel, what was the original recommendation by 
the board for the area of this Columbus site? How much land did 
that recommendation comprehend? 

Col. Eames. We made no recommendation on that, Senator. My 
instructions came to me from Washington as to the area, which was 
250,000 acres, that was deemed necessary for the very large school 
that was then contemplated. 

Senator New. Was the construction for 250,000 acres? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; the school at that time was a 70,000-men 
school. 

Senator New. Of course that has been greatly modified since? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator New. My attention has been attracted here, as we have 
gone along, listening to this testimony, to the various sizes that have 
been suggested from time to time for this camp and school as you 
contemplate, that there was at one time, I believe, something like 
140,000 acres recommended; that was reduced, and again reduced 
until you now have, according to what Senator Smith said here a 
little while ago, reached the conclusion that 98,000 acres will suffice. 
Is that correct? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; in my judgment, 115,000 acres, as outlined 
in the condemnation proceedings, is correct. I have myself outlined 
the area needed, and that was included in the condemnation proceed¬ 
ings, and I still think that is the correct area and properly located 
geographically with relation to the camp site. 

Senator New. That is, that the 115,000 acres is the correct area? 

Col. Eames. One hundred and fifteen thousand acres. I can get 
along with 98,000 acres; the reduction of 17,000 was made after a 
consultation with my assistant commandant and myself and a study 
of the ground. t 

Senator New. Who is your assistant? 

Col. Eames. Col. Mumma; and we agreed that we could eliminate 
the 17,000 acres, which would cost approximately $1,000,000, and 
still function there satisfactorily. It gives up some of the future 
of the school and it will cause a little trouble in the future for the 
commanding officer, because of the 5-mile zone and police purposes. 
It put us so far out of Columbus that Columbus could be wide open 
to both liquor and vice so far as we are concerned, because it put us 
outside of the limit. 

Senator New. Of what board was Maj. Malone a member? 

Col. Eames. I don’t recall that Maj. Malone was a member of any 
of these boards. 

Senator New. I thought that Maj. Malone- 

Col. Eames. Oh, you mean Maloney? 

Senator New. Maloney; I beg your pardon. 

Col. Eames. There is a Maj. Maloney who was not a member of 
any board, except he was ordered to report to me and assist me in 
the selection of a target range. That is, an A range, and he did, and 
did very well. 

Senator New. Maj. Crutchfield is in the same position as Maj. 
Maloney ? 



214 LAND LOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

Col. Eames. Yes; in the same position as Maj. Maloney. 

Senator Weeks. Did you suggest in your reply that there was 
liquor in Columbus, Ga. ? 

Col. Eames. No; I said there could be liquor in Columbus, Ga., so 
far as the 5-mile limit was concerned. 

The Chairman. If there is nothing else, Senator New, we have an¬ 
other witness. 

Senator Weeks. There is just one question I would like to ask. 
Have you made any estimate of the cost of maintaining a plant of 
this kind in operation as compared with the cost if it were not being 
operated—the annual cost? 

Col. Eames. No, sir; I have not made such a one; it would be 
rather difficult to make. 

Senator Weeks. Could you do it? 

Col. Eames. I could make it. One of the great difficulties would 
be, first, in any big enterprise, the question of holding our organiza¬ 
tion together; we have 400 highly skilled men who are familiar with 
certain detail work in this that would gradually drift away, and a 
very great damage would be done if they were out. 

Senator Weeks. I do not think you quite catch my meaning. 
After this camp is complete, suppose it were completed as you con¬ 
template, then the Government would have to maintain it. 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Weeks. Our experience in the past has been that the 
maintenance of many camps or forts has been very considerable an¬ 
nually, even if they were not being used. Now, what I am inquiring 
about is what would be the probable cost of maintenance of this es¬ 
tablishment, if you can call it that, if it were not being used, and 
what would be the cost if it were being used, so we may know 7 what 
we are getting into in addition to the original cost ? 

Col. Eames. It provides a home for a certain portion of the Army 
that I presume w 7 e must have—a garrison. Eight thousand of the 
whole force of 10,000 would have to be provided with a home some¬ 
where. 

The Chairman. We have places for that. We have lots of garri¬ 
sons that we have been for years talking about abandoning —some of 
them. 

Senator McKellar. What Senator Weeks wishes to know is what 
it is going to cost after we establish it, after you have spent the 
amounts how T much is it going to cost? 

Col. Eames. I w T ould have to get the figures on that. 

Senator Weeks. Do you think you can make an approximate 
estimate ? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir: I could make an approximate estimate. 

Senator Weeks. I w T ish you would do that and put it into the 
record, including the interest on the cost of the investment. 

Col. Eames. Very well, sir. 

Senator Smith. I understand you to say, Colonel, while it would 
not measure up to as big a school as you had contemplated, that for 
$6,000,000, wdth the privilege of using the lumber that is around, 
and the material which has been bought and which the Government 
does not need and which is now located at adjoining camps, you 
could build the enterprise—complete the enterprise—and that it 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 215 

would be extremely satisfactory to you in the years to come as com¬ 
mandant of such a school. 

Col. Eames. Of course, Senator, that goes into a matter of policy. 

I am speaking purely for myself and as the commandant. 

Senator McKellar. Practically speaking, that means this, that 
while you reduce the amount to be immediately expended to 
$6,000,000, of course the school would have to come back to Congress 
and get an additional amount to make it such a school as you intend 
to make it. 

Col. Eames. Ultimately that would probably result. 

Senator McKellar. We understand that would ultimately be 
true, because we have to do that all the time, and about the estimates 
of the camps, all you have to do is to go and look at the figures on 
the cantonments and you will find that they have always been 
doubled, or about doubled, before they are completed. 

Senator Smith. You do not mean to come back to Congress for 
the school you are talking about ? 

Col. Eames. Oh, no. 

Senator Smith. They may in future years enlarge it if they see fit? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. And you mean you can make a practical school 
for this purpose with that money ? 

Col. Eames. I certainly can. 

Senator Smith. Did Col. Brookhart have any connection with the 
selection of this camp of the National Guard? 

Col. Eames. No, sir. 

Senator Smith. Or Maj. Crutchfield? 

Col. Eames. Maj. Crutchfield assisted me in selecting the Class A 
target range. 

Senator Smith. How many Class A target ranges have you in this 
country? 

Col. Eames. At nearly half of the military posts—the original 
military posts—there are target ranges. In some cases they are 
owned and in other cases they are rented. At the cantonments, prac¬ 
tically all of the cantonments have small target ranges. They are 
not, however, suitable for this work. Our work is different from the 
ordinary work of teaching the soldier how to shoot; we are teaching 
instructors how to instruct in shooting. It is a slightly different 
problem. 

Senator Wadsworth. Colonel, could you tell us what disposition 
has been made by the Government of the target range which is situ¬ 
ated about 30 miles from Spartanburg? 

Col. Eames. I think that is still in existence, as far as I know. 

Senator Wadsworth. That covers territory 7 miles long? 

Col. Eames. Yes, sir; it is a very large range. 

Senator Wadsworth. Do you know what the purpose of the de¬ 
partment is as to its future use? 

Col. Eames. I do not. 

Senator Wadsworth. Is it owned by the Government ? 

Col. Eames. That I am not prepared to say. Col. Wyllie could 

perhaps tell you that. . . , , A 

Senator Wadsworth. Do you know whether it is owned or rented, 

Col. Wyllie? 


216 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Wyllie. I think it is rented. 

Senator Smith. Would that be large enough for your school of 
arms and the enterprise you had in view ? 

Col. Eames. At Spartanburg? 

Senator Smith. Yes. 

Col. Eames. Its geographical situation Vould preclude its efficient 
use. 

Senator McKellar. Why? 

Col. Eames. Because it is so far from the center of population— 
from the center of military population. 

Senator McKellar. Spartanburg is? 

Col. Eames. Perhaps you are speaking of Wisconsin. 

Senator Wadsworth. I am speaking of South Carolina. 

Col. Eames. I do not know about that. That is a different place. 

Senator Wadsworth. I visited the range myself and it is a large 
range and it is used by the troops of the Spartanburg encampment. 

Col. Eames. I was thinking of Sparta, Wis. 

Senator Smith. Is there anything else you think of that you think 
would be of value to the committee ? 

Col. Eames. Nothing at all, sir. 

Senator New. I would like to ask a question here. Independent of 
that question raised about Sparta, Wis., what disposition, Colonel, 
as a matter of general information, is to be made of the reserve at 
Sparta, Wis., do you know ? 

Col. Eames. I do not know. 

Col. Wyllie. I can answer that question. 

Senator New. I wish you would, Colonel. 

Col. Wyllie. We expect to use it as a depot for ordnance. 

Senator New. For ordnance? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; for explosives and tractors. 

Senator New. How much land does the Government own there? 

Senator Wyllie. I do not recall. 

Senator New. A considerable area, isn’t it? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; a considerable area, but nothing like 100,000 
acres; it is a considerable area, however. 

The Chairman. Speaking of depots and ordnance, I was down at 
South Carolina a short while ago where they had built immense 
docks and buildings on a reserve for storage of ordnance and quar¬ 
termaster supplies as well. What are you going to do with that? 

Col. Wyllie. Do you mean near the port—near Charleston? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Col. Wyllie. That is a port of embarkation for overseas. 

The Chairman. I know you have an immense tract of ground 
there, and buildings built especially for storing ordnance. 

Col. Wyllie. The principle thing we were to store there is T. N. T., 
high explosives. 

The Chairman, f thought you dropped a good deal of that into 
the sea. 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir. 

The Chairman. None of it? 

Col. Wyllie. None of it. 

The Chairman. What became of the explosives in New Jersey? 

Col. Wyllie. They were taken to another place. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


217 


The Chairman. I understood from Senator Frelinghuysen that 
they dumped a lot of that into the sea. 

Col. Wyllie. I believe they dumped some belonging to the French 
Government into the sea, which was at Wilmington, N. C. 

Senator McKellar. Does it deteriorate with age? 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir; not as far as I know. 

Senator New. I saw a newspaper account a very short time ago 
which told of two or three shiploads of some high explosive, I don’t 
think it was T. N. T.; I don’t remember just what it was, that was 
towed out to sea from one of the New Jersey ports and dumped into 
the sea. 

Senator McKellar. That was the T. N. T. or other high explosive 
that belonged to the French Government. 

Senator New. I think it was stated that that belonged to the 
French Government. It w T ent out from the New Jersey coast. 

Senator McKellar. That is your understanding ? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is my understanding. 

Senator Wadsworth. I would like to get further information 
about the Spartanburg range, if the Colonel can tell us what the 
plan of the Government is for its use and disposition? 

Col. Wyllie. I do not think we expect to keep that; we expect to 
turn that back; that was rented land and it was used in connection 
with the plan down there at Spartanburg. We have no expectation 
of keeping it. 

Senator McKellar. How many cantonments do you expect to 
retain ? 

Col. Wyllie. We have asked for authority to take over these 14 
cantonments. There are 16 contonments, two of which are on 
Government-owned ground, and the others are on leased ground. 

Senator McKellar. Which two does the Government own? 

Col. Wyllie. Camp Funston and Camp Lewis, and the amount of 
money which we have to put into these will be such that it is con¬ 
sidered to be a good business proposition to purchase the land with 
a view to using them in peace times for maneuvering purposes. 

Senator McKellar. That is, when you have the buildings already 
built? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is where we have the buildings already 
built. 

Senator McKellar. Wooden buildings already built? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Now, if we can create a large enough estab¬ 
lishment to fill these 16 cantonments we will be doing pretty well; 
and couldn’t we take care of our war activities in those 16 canton¬ 
ments ? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; we have more than enough to take care of 
anything we might have. 

Senator McKellar. Why is it necessary to buy and build these 
large camps we are now discussing? 

Col. Wyllie. Because these places are on ground—there is not 
enough land there for this purpose, and it would cost too much to 
acquire the land. 

Senator McKellar. The one at Fort Sill, is that a permanent 
camp ? 


218 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is a permanent camp. 

Senator McKellar. You have used Fort Sill for a school of mus¬ 
ketry all during this war, and if you managed to get along with 
it during the war, why can’t you manage to get along with it in peace 
times without this immense cost to build another camp, if we haven’t 
any use for it ? 

Col. Wyllie. The Infantry school was crowded out of Fort Sill. 

Senator McKellar. But you can readjust that, can you not ? You 
have got other cantonments that you can remove other bodies of 
troops to; for instance* if Fort Sill is already fitted for a school of 
musketry. Surely you can move the school that is there to some of 
these other camps that you have. 

Col. Wyllie. It is really fitted for a school of artillery; a school 
of musketry merely went in there. 

Senator McKellar. You have other camps fitted for artillery. 

Col. Wyllie. No, sir; only those we have especially built for that 
purpose at Bragg and Knox. 

Senator McKellar. Bragg and Knox. You do not want three, do 
you? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Will it take three cantonments to provide for 
artillery schools? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; the Chief of Field Artillery wants more 
than that. 

Senator McKellar. If you give them all they want you will have 
an Army twice as big as Germany ever had. 

Col. Wyllie. That is the expectation. The school of Artillery at 
Fort Sill is not quite the same as the schools at Bragg and Knox. 

Senator McKellar. Not quite the same, but for all practical pur¬ 
poses it would do. We are going to have three great cantonments 
for training officers of Artillery, as I understand it. Is that correct? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. How many officers are going to be taught in 
these three schools ? What is contemplated ? 

Col. Wyllie. I do not know the details of that, sir. 

Senator McKellar. Ought not we to have the details before we 
spend this large sum of money for other schools, when we have these 
cantonments already built? 

Col. Wyllie. These schools at Bragg and Knox are not for teach¬ 
ing officers; they are for teaching units entirely—complete units. 

Senator McKellar. How many will they take care of? 

Col. Wyllie. Knox will accommodate four brigades and Bragg 
will accommodate two brigades. 

Senator Wadsworth. May I ask, Colonel, wliat disposition is to be 
made of Mulberry Island? 

Col. Wyllie. That is to be retained. 

Senator Wadsworth. For heavy artillery? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; for heavy artillery. 

Senator Wadsworth. That makes another school. 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wadsworth. Do you remember what the Government 
paid for that? 

Col. Wyllie. I do not. 



LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


219 


Senator McKellar. What about Camp Huestis? 

Senator Wadsworth. That is Mulberry Island. Do you remem¬ 
ber its acreage? 

Col. Wyllie. No: I don’t remember the acreage. 

Senator Wadsworth. It is about 20 miles long. 

Col. Wyllie. Yes; it is about 20 miles long, but it is narrow. 

Senator Wadsworth. That is to accommodate two brigades? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is to accomodate two brigades. 

Senator Wadsworth. Is that finished now ? 

Col. Wyllie. Yes; it is finished up for two brigades. We were 
going to make it for three brigades when the armistice came, and 
we cut off the additional brigade. 

Senator Wadsworth. What artillery is to be trained there in 
time of peace? 

Col. Wyllie. The heavy artillery, railroads, and 9.2 howitzers, 
and things of that kind. 

Senator Wadsworth. Everything above G inches. 

Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; everything above 6 inches. 

STATEMENT OF LIEUT. COL. SMITH W. BROOKHART. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. What is your residence? What State 
are you from? 

Col. Brookhart. I reside in Iowa—Washington, Iowa. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. You are a member of the National 
Guard ? 

Col. Brookhart. I have been a member of the National Guard for 
almost 20 years. I served in the Spanish War and now, for about 
• 14 months, in this war. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. Will you just state to the committee 
what this Columbus project is and what your views are of its im¬ 
portance, and I will not ask you questions, but just let you make 
a brief statement in your own language, and then we will ask you 
questions afterwards. 

Col. Brookhart. Gentlemen, my duties during the past 10 or 12 
years have been as a trainer of riflemen. I train officers and men to 
shoot the rifle and the pistol, and I want to suggest this to you that 
this school, the department of which I am director now, is the out¬ 
growth of what I regard as one of the big lessons of this war. We 
had two schools in the armies of the world before the war in refer¬ 
ence to straight shooting, and the Germans and French adopted the 
view that a poor rifleman would get more hits in war than a good 
one, and that was taught in these armies, except that the Germans 
quietly did train a very large corps of snipers—sharpshooters. In 
our Army we were divided, some believing the German theory and 
some followed the other. I for years have been on the National 
Board for Promotion of Rifle Practice, a board created by Congress, 
and had stood for the straight shooting. During my experience be¬ 
fore the war I trained 10,000 men to shoot the rifle and the pistol. 
In that number there were 16 who won medals in world champion¬ 
ship contests. So I had had experience in training every grade of 
rifleman when the war began. The authorities in charge of our 
Army perhaps at that time leaned more to the theory that we did 


220 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


not need straight shooting, but that is not true now. That argu¬ 
ment has been ended. There is no officer anywhere now that stands 
for that theory. When in the border service I trained the Iowa 
troops—there were 4,600 of them—and in five weeks on their own 
range they fired an average of 300 rounds per man and every shot was 
fired under the direction of a competent rifleman. No more were 
fired in the border service; after they left their own home State 
range they fired not another shot. Eighteen men were trained 
as a rifle team. When this war broke out the Iowa regiments were 
again mobilized and the one that went in the Rainbow Division was 
camped within 12 miles of a rifle range for two months and went 
across without firing a shot. Fifty per cent of those men had re¬ 
ceived this training which I gave them in 1916, about 300 rounds per 
man, which is about five days of training; 10 per cent of those were 
highly trained riflemen that had been with me for years and had 
been in the National Guard training year after year. The other 50* 
per cent had never fired a rifle and did not. 

It was things like that which caused Gen. Pershing’s cablegrams 
which were read here the other day, and you must remember those 
cablegrams began in August and they ran over a period up to the 
following April, when the firing school was established at Camp 
Perry. Col. Mumma was made commandant of that and he made 
me the chief instructor in that school. We there trained 6,000 offi¬ 
cers, or a little over 5,000 officers and about 800 civilians. Among 
those civilians was one National Guard—I will not call them civilians 
either—and the National Guard rifle team from the State of Ar¬ 
kansas was the only one that reported in those matches. It has been 
stated by some one that two or three days were sufficient to train a 
rifleman. That is a very grave error, gentlemen; it is not. There 
are a large number of things involved in rifle training if you are 
going to hit anything that requires instruction and work and prac¬ 
tice and ammunition and all of that. 

The National Guard team from the State of Arkansas was with 
us three weeks; two weeks in training and one week in matches, and 
when that was over three officers of that team stayed with us two 
weeks longer at their own expense to get further instruction in this 
school. 

When this school was closed on the 6th of October I went on special 
duty as an instructor and had the Nineteenth Division, Camp Dodge, 
Iowa. I there found and got a detail of 46 of the graduates of my 
school at Perry, and I reproduced the Camp Perry school in that 
division, and in three weeks we trained officers and noncommissioned 
officers, 1,100 of them, over the same course, substantially as we did 
at Perry, and had started a second school of the same size when I left 
the division. That was the only division in the United States Army 
that had enough instructors trained to take care of the rifle training 
as it came to the ranges. 

Now, this Iowa regiment that went across in the Rainbow Division, 
in the first eight days of the fighting, driving the Germans back from 
the Marne, had 1,400 casualties. One-half of its effective strength 
was hit in that fight, and I have letters and information about the 
character of fighting, and I will say to you that only a small per¬ 
centage of that regiment was trained as it ought to have been trained, 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


221 


and the penalty was death. That is what it meant in that. Now, 
we have overcome all of this proposition and our Army is now united 
and fully determined that we should train every man in the Ameri¬ 
can Army to shoot to hit, and our school at Perry has been trans¬ 
ferred to this Columbus school and made the department of marks¬ 
manship and I have been the director and am now the director of that 
department, and we have trained the graduating West Point class 
in marksmanship. It was our first class in that school. 

The continuation of this school means that the proper training of 
our Army will be given in the future. Now t , I am not interested in 
Columbus. Any other location would suit me just as well providing 
we could do the work. Columbus is suitable. It has the rifle range 
close to the camp, 150 yards away, where no time will be lost; where 
we will get the benefit of training every moment we are at it. All 
of these other cantonments were built without reference to that. 
Nobody paid any particular attention to it. The rifle ranges are 15 
or 18 miles away in some instances. The best one is perhaps Camp 
Dodge, Iowa, in my own State, and I will say to you I will be very 
glad to have this school go to Camp Dodge, Iowa. It is available; it 
has a rifle range, already built, and it has a cantonment. 

The Chairman. Is that Government owned? 

Col. Brookhart. No, sir; it is a rented range. It is on poor land, 
and as has been shown you, it will cost $21,000,000 to get the land in 
our State; that is, provided you are going to buy it. 

Senator New. What is the size of it? 

Col. Brookhart. Of which ? 

Senator New. Of Fort Dodge. 

Col. Brookhart. The Government and State together own about 
1,000 acres there now. The rifle range is on that and outside of the 
cantonment, but all the rest would have to be bought. 

Senator McKellar. What about Camp Perry ? 

Col. Brookhart. Camp Perry has about 400 acres and is very fine 
for an A range, but gives no opportunity at all for the other train¬ 
ing that goes with that in the school. 

Senator McKellar. What other training? 

Col. Brookhart. Training in scouting and patrolling, training in 
field combat fire, collective firing, and all of that, which requires a 
big territory of ground. That follows this training in accurate 
shooting. After a man has learned to shoot straight and hit and 
learned to manage these conditions, then we send him out in the 
different units as they are going to be organized for the firing, and 
have these open field firing targets. That is what they call the 
musketry school. Ours is called the marksmanship school. At 
Camp Dodge there is plenty of ground there suitable for this mus¬ 
ketry, but it would have to be acquired at a much higher price. 

Senator Beckham. Do you think Columbus is more available and 
cheaper than Camp Dodge? 

Col. Brookhart. The land alone would cost $20,000,000 at Camp 
Dodge, and the rifle range would be a mile away from the canton¬ 
ment, and nothing like as convenient as it is at Columbus. That is 
one trouble about taking any of these cantonments, as I have already 
suggested, as far as I know, and I have seen several of them; they 
are not built with reference to this idea that I am telling you about. 


222 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 

We are now all convinced that the best part of military training is 
this training that we expect to give. It is training in the things 
they are actually going to clo in war more than anything else. 

Senator McKellar. That is the same kind of training that has 
been given during the war? 

Col. Brookhart. Yes. 

Senator McKellar. Why do you want to improve your facilities 
after the war is over, if this gave you the kind of training that you 
have just spoken of, and I have no doubt it was all right? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. He said it was not all right. 

Col. Brookhart. I have just said to you, Senator, that not to ex¬ 
ceed 10 per cent of the Third Iowa Begiment with the Rainbow Divi¬ 
sion was properly trained, or were properly trained at that time, and 
they have suffered the penalty from their lack of training, and I 
know it. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. You believe many of those deaths 
would have been avoided? 

Col. Brookhart. I am very certain that is true, and there is no 
officer in the Army now that claims otherwise. 

Senator McKellar. Were you with any of those troops? 

Col. Brookhart. I was not; I was not ever permitted to train 
them, although it was my duty, sir. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. You are not a Regular Army officer? 

Col. Brookhart. No, sir. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. You are a National Guard officer? 

Col. Brookhart. Yes, sir; I am a National Guard officer. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. And you expect to retire to civil life ? 

Col. Brookhart. Yes; I have applied for a discharge, and will be 
released, I have been informed, after this course in this school is 
worked out. I am preparing the marksmanship course of instruction 
for this school. 

Senator Wadsworth. The engagement referred to in which the 
One Hundred and Sixty-eight Infantry took part was the crossing 
of the Ourc River? 

Col. Brookhart. Yes, sir. 

Senator McKellar. If no other question is to be asked on that, I 
want to ask you: You say you are a member of the National Guard. 
Is there any such organization now ? 

Col. Brookhart. I think so. Senator. I think there is some talk 
in the newspapers about the National Guard being wiped out of 
existence, but the law has not been changed, and the law itself pro¬ 
vided that after the National Guard was drafted into the Federal 
service it would be discharged to civil life, and I think that is cor¬ 
rect, and it will be discharged; they will be civilians; but the law 
provides for its reorganization, and nine States, I believe, have the 
National Guard organization now. 

The Chairman. We made an appropriation for that. 

Col. Brookhart. Yes, sir; that is our understanding. 

Senator McKellar. You are not in favor of its being disbanded 
and disorganized? 

Col. Brookhart. No; not unless a system of universal training is 
adopted to replace both the Regular Army and the National Guard, 
and if we continue under the old plan I am very emphatically in 
favor of the National Guard. 


LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 


223 


Senator Smith of Georgia. Did you have anything to do with 
sending these national guardsmen to this school for training? 

Col. Brookiiart. Yes; it is the plan that the National Guard offi¬ 
cers should be trained in this school also. I certainly think all of 
them ought to have the instruction in this school. 

Senator McKellar. Do you know whether or not the plan of the 
General Staff or the War College is to have a National Guard? 

Col. Brookhart. I do not know anything about that. 

Senator McKellar. I saw a notice to that effect in the newspapers. 

Col. Brookiiart. I know absolutely nothing of that, Senator. I 
presume in due time their plans will be presented to Congress. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. If there is a National Guard, you think 
the officers ought to have this instruction? 

Col. Brookiiart. I do; and I think there ought to be a National 
Guard. 

Senator McKellar. I agree with you. 

The Chairman. Have you anything further you want to ask Col. 
Brookhart, Senator Smith? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I have not. Maj. Crutchfield, who is 
adjutant general of Ohio, is here, but his statement would be very 
much along the same line as that of Col. Brookhart. 

Maj. Crutchfield. T certainly O. K. everything Col. Brookhart 
has said. 

Senator Smith of Georgia. His views just corroborate those of 
Col. Brookhart. 

The Chairman. If that concludes the hearing on this Georgia 
proposition- 

Senator Smith of Georgia. I am going to ask the committee later ’ 
on to have some revised estimates from the War Department. 

The Chairman. That is your own statement? 

Senator Smith of Georgia. No; as action for the committee, I am 
going to ask for some revised estimates from the War Department to 
bring it down to the figures I discussed. 

Senator Thomas. I would like to inquire what the status of affairs 
at the camp is pending this investigation. Is the work going on? 

Col. Wyllie. It is not going on. 

Senator McKellar. Nothing is being done at all? 

Col. Wyllie. Nothing is being done at all. 

The Chairman. There are two propositions which I think ought 
to be disposed of in some way. One is the matter of these contracts, 
and there is one witness here that Senator Brandegee would like for 
the Committee to hear. 

Senator Brandegee. Mr. Bobbins is here representing the Marlin 
Arms Co., of Connecticut. 


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